There is only one way

[Jaden]

A shortened learning curve...

duckie:

Help me out here, as I'm sitting here, scratching my head. What is it that you're trying to do? You are a self-professed "3" who "wishes he were a 9."

And yet:

1. You do not believe in professional instruction.
2. You do not believe in systems that would help a player in your position.

Are you trying to do a John Belushi-esque "foot fight!" instigation between system believers and the professional instructors you traditionally have had a beef with here? The old, "killing two birds with one stone" thing?

Just kidding. Humor aside, in either case (either of the two items), you obviously have a lack of playing experience. While it is true that there's absolutely no replacement for experience at the table (of which I am a firm believer), you also cannot discount things that will get you on the right track and shorten your learning curve -- helping your practice time become more profitable and productive for you. The old saying, "you don't know what you don't know" applies here. Sometimes outside influences -- e.g. having a second set of eyes look at your fundamentals, or learning a system that helps you look at the table in ways that you'd never discover on your own -- can help fast-track your game and make your practice time much more productive.

Once players reach a certain level of proficiency, obviously, the "do your own thing" has lots of value, in maintenance of skills, and having the ability to see (and absorb) things at the table that normal Joe/Jane Banger won't see. But one needs to *get* to that level of proficiency, and there are ways to congeal things quicker to get around that "you don't know what you don't know" thing. I personally credit a LOT of my rise in playing abilities to my innate seeking of knowledge -- going to instructors, profuse reading and viewing of instructional or professional match videos, being open to constructive criticism when I'm playing a better player and he sees something I'm doing wrong, etc.

To close, information and knowledge doesn't just "come" to you. You have to *seek* it.

-Sean

Here you go. Aside from some books and videos on fundamentals there wasn't much available when I learned how to play. I learned most of what I know through figuring it out on my own, with the exception of BHE, which Efren taught me.

In 2003, my friend who was stationed on my ship and me were sitting on the ship and about to get off for the day.

I asked him if he wanted to go with me to see a movie, "Pool Hall Junkies".

He was a complete banger, actually not even a banger, he had only picked up a cue once or twice in his life.

He liked the movie, so did I don't give us crap...

I told him after the movie was over that I was going to the pool hall and if he wanted to learn how to play at a high level, I would teach him.

I controlled every asspect of the first six months he learned.

I started out teaching him stance and stroke, then ghostball for aiming...Made him practice stroke drills, then speed drills and tangent line shape, then draw and follow. After becoming proficient at each level I would give him more knowledge.

Within two years, he was an A player. He was a nine in the apa at nineball and a seven in eightball within a year and a half of picking up a cue.

I also taught him more advanced aiming techniques. He went on and learned from people other than me as well, but those first six months I controlled every aspect of his game and for the first two years, I was his main source for information.

I honestly believe that he would NOT have gotten to the level he has had he tried to learn on his own, well I know that he wouldn't if he didn't eventually receive instruction, but I doubt he would've gotten to the level he's at, at all, if he hadn't had the controls placed on him from when he first really started to play.

The bad habits that you learn trying to figure stuff out on your own are HARD to overcome.

Aiming systems actually help you in that learning curve because the loner that you practice while getting negative feedback, the harder it will be to train yourself correctly,

Jaden

 

[Koop]

Everyday all day you guys argue about this bull$hit, don't any of you actually play pool? If your making balls and improving then carry on, if you suck then try something new, if you have tried it all and still suck then take up poker.

Word up, man. I'm with you!

 

[mantis99]

The point is once you select XXX system that fits you and your style, stay with it and stop trying other ways. Read "Book of Five Rings" and you may understand.

Oh,,,I'm a 5 now.......moving on up......like I said I would be doing....

Bruce Lee was about finding what works for you and the goal is to get beyond needing systems to total freedom.

It is easy to say such and such would say such and such because when they are dead and you can't talk directly to them.

I bet he said, "Good for you" to me.

If someone wants professional instruction, there is nothing wrong with that. It just not for me. Is it so hard to believe that there are people that are very capable to learn on their own?

It amazing that people can gauge someones game without ever playing them. Never seeing their game. That's pretty arrogant thinking. Its all assumptions based on very little info.

I've never seen anyone of you play, so you just maybe a no more than a banger.

Really, if I haven't seen any of you play.....why should I even listen to you?

I'm just sharing what I feel and believe. I believe unless someone sticks to whatever system/way that works for and stop checking out this and that, they will get to a certain point in skill and go no further.

On the contrary. I think it is much better to be open to instruction, especially when you are not at a certain level. It would be one thing for Albert Pujols to say that his way of batting works for him, but I bet that if a qualified individual whom he respected suggested that they saw a hole in his swing that he might at least check it out. Being an average player and saying you don't need instruction goes contrary to common sense knowledge in all sports. That represents the kind of uncoachable player that no coach wants on their team.

If Johnny Archer walked up to you and said "hey Duckie, if you adjust such and such it would improve you a lot", that you would say, "Na Johnny, I'm all good like I am".

I don't want to sound mean or judgemental, but you sound like someone that is extremely stubborn that is only hurting themselves by not being open to other peoples qualified instruction.

 

[macguy]

The point is once you select XXX system that fits you and your style, stay with it and stop trying other ways. Read "Book of Five Rings" and you may understand.

Oh,,,I'm a 5 now.......moving on up......like I said I would be doing....

Bruce Lee was about finding what works for you and the goal is to get beyond needing systems to total freedom.

It is easy to say such and such would say such and such because when they are dead and you can't talk directly to them.

I bet he said, "Good for you" to me.

If someone wants professional instruction, there is nothing wrong with that. It just not for me. Is it so hard to believe that there are people that are very capable to learn on their own?

It amazing that people can gauge someones game without ever playing them. Never seeing their game. That's pretty arrogant thinking. Its all assumptions based on very little info.

I've never seen anyone of you play, so you just maybe a no more than a banger.

Really, if I haven't seen any of you play.....why should I even listen to you?

I'm just sharing what I feel and believe. I believe unless someone sticks to whatever system/way that works for and stop checking out this and that, they will get to a certain point in skill and go no further.

The problem with your theory is. If everybody is trying to learn on their own the wheel would constantly need to be reinvented. It is best to stand on the shoulders of others and reach higher.
Miyamoto Musashi had training that he built on, he was no completely self taught. Do you see yourself sometime challenging players and proving yourself like Miyamoto Musashi? In Miyamoto Musashi day you bet your life, today all you have to do is bet a few dollars. Do you now gamble? Will you become a gambler to prove yourself?

You seem to like the martial arts. In martial it is purely teaching, handed down from teacher to student often unchanged for hundreds of years. It is this essence and purity that can only be maintained through the student teacher relationship. If pool followed these kinds of disciplines new players would be turned out by the boat load. Instead we have people picking up a cue knowing nothing and no Dojo to go to for the essence they may wish.

I have to disagree with you, floundering is no a training method.

 

[JB Cases]

There is only one way to aim.....your way. If you keep trying other people ways, you will never be able to improve past a certain point. Now your way maybe the same way as others, but that doesn't matter.

What matters is that you find a way that works for you and then stick to it in order to improve. Keeping on trying different ways only limits your effort to improve.

Once you pick your way and stay with it, forgetting that XXX may or may not use YYY way. Sticking to the way you choose, whatever it maybe, gives you direction, a firm course to follow.

It's all about using your way to the best of your abilities at the current moment in time.

In reality it all comes down to you......not your cue, not your chalk, not your aiming/visualization method, not what some say you should or should not do.

Its all you and your way..... until one finds their way, they will wander lost looking to fill the void left by not having a way.

For a guy who gets so much weight in local events you sure have a lot to say about what you think is the "only" way to play pool.

Let's see, the other day I am watching this guy practice and he misses a kick shot. So he sets it up again and misses again. He does this like five times before I had enough.

I taught him the simple double-the-distance method and in FIVE minutes he could not only hit that first kick consistently but he was able to hit one rail kicks all over the table. Not only that I showed him how it applies to balls close to a rail for rail-first shots.

Maybe I should have let him flounder doing it "his way"?

Is that what you would have done or would you have showed him a way that works if you had one?

 

[JB Cases]

The point is once you select XXX system that fits you and your style, stay with it and stop trying other ways. Read "Book of Five Rings" and you may understand.

Oh,,,I'm a 5 now.......moving on up......like I said I would be doing....

Bruce Lee was about finding what works for you and the goal is to get beyond needing systems to total freedom.

You know I think what annoys me most about you is that you claim to be following the philosophy of Bruce Lee and yet you say and do the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Bruce Lee embraced all martial arts and fighting types. He played around with many of them taking what he wanted and dropping what he didn't. If Bruce Lee were alive and he read ANY ONE of your posts on this forum he would one-inch punch you into the corner pocket for abusing his philosophy.

As the great, and I do sincerely MEAN great, San Jose Dick said recently, where else can you go but up? I mean really, you're an admitted 3. So just by virtue of breathing and holding a pool cue for more than an hour a day you should get better.

But I make you this promise Duckie. I swear that for as long as I am able to hold a pool cue and stand at the table you have action FOREVER.

No one who has the attitude you do will ever truly understand the true beauty of pool and learn enough to see the light.

 

[Bambu]

Passing up a 20 dollar lesson back in the 80's was worse because there were far less resources available. Everything was a secret back then. But, I admit I can remember passing on some good ones. I thought I didnt need lessons, that I knew how to play but just needed practice. Looking back, I think it was just a pride thing. Yes, even 5's and 6's have egos. If you can find it, the only thing better would be to find someone to teach you for free. Behind every great player stands a great teacher, or another great player. I dont think Ive even seen a legitimate B who was self taught.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Truer words were never spoken.

Behind every great player stands a great teacher, or another great player.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The point is once you select XXX system that fits you and your style, stay with it and stop trying other ways. Read "Book of Five Rings" and you may understand.

Oh,,,I'm a 5 now.......moving on up......like I said I would be doing....

Bruce Lee was about finding what works for you and the goal is to get beyond needing systems to total freedom.

It is easy to say such and such would say such and such because when they are dead and you can't talk directly to them.

I bet he said, "Good for you" to me.

If someone wants professional instruction, there is nothing wrong with that. It just not for me. Is it so hard to believe that there are people that are very capable to learn on their own?

It amazing that people can gauge someones game without ever playing them. Never seeing their game. That's pretty arrogant thinking. Its all assumptions based on very little info.

I've never seen anyone of you play, so you just maybe a no more than a banger.

Really, if I haven't seen any of you play.....why should I even listen to you?

I'm just sharing what I feel and believe. I believe unless someone sticks to whatever system/way that works for and stop checking out this and that, they will get to a certain point in skill and go no further.

You shouldn't be posting anything "matter-of-fact" if you're an apa 5. You don't even know what you don't know yet.

 

[macguy]

Truer words were never spoken.

In many cases the teacher didn't even know they were teaching. As a guy who hung in an big action room like 24 hours a day at times, you really learn a lot by just watching with the occasional question here and there. I think many regard pool education just taking lessons but lessons are often where you find them. The players who think they are self taught are not really, they have had many teachers.
The problem is, you have to have the wisdom to know what to adopt and what works for you, and reject what does not. That is where a formal teacher can come in, they cut through the BS and can provide clarity. Every person who has ever taken a formal pool lesson I am sure has had an "AH HA" moment.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Yep when I first started, I played the best players in the room, cheap sets mostly. They were not teaching, but I was learning (being schooled).

They were always inclined afterwards to answer my questions, show me a shot etc.

In many cases the teacher didn't even know they were teaching. As a guy who hung in an big action room like 24 hours a day at times, you really learn a lot by just watching with the occasional question here and there. I think many regard pool education just taking lessons but lessons are often where you find them. The players who think they are self taught are not really, they have had many teachers.
The problem is, you have to have the wisdom to know what to adopt and what works for you, and reject what does not. That is where a formal teacher can come in, they cut through the BS and can provide clarity. Every person who has ever taken a formal pool lesson I am sure has had an "AH HA" moment.

 

[JoeyA]

Duckie,
I read your original post and decided that I wasn't going to post in your thread. It didn't really interest me and I believe that everyone deserves their time in the sun. It's starting to look like you're getting a sunburn.

In the brotherly spirit of pool, I respect the fact that you love pool. I'm glad to see your game moving up. That's all good. Just remember that there are things that you don't know and things that others can teach you. It doesn't matter to me that you don't care for any aiming system or that you only aim "your way". That's cool. Use whatever you want but don't stop learning about pool or you will become one of those guys who sits on the side embellishing stories as you age. There's plenty enough in the reality of what actually happens in pool to make this game exciting enough that you don't have to waste time exaggerating claims. For the record, I haven't seen you make any outlandish claims about your skill level.

I've always spent more time on the table by myself than 'practicing" with others so I know about the value of hitting a million balls.

You've caught a lot of heat in this thread and while some of it may be deserved, you have "staying power", a love for pool and I like that.

Good luck in your journey.

 

[walrus_3d]

Bruce Lee was about finding what works for you and the goal is to get beyond needing systems to total freedom.

Part of his process for "finding what works" was actually to learn what other people were doing. What better way to counteract an attack than to learn it from both sides?

Would you rather he said "good for you" and patted you on the head, or would you rather hear "show me what you've learned" and see if there's something he could learn from you?

You have to understand something in order to improve on it. If all you're looking at is the table (and you're not a PhD physicist), you're not looking far enough.