Yes, but isn't that what ShootingArts was suggesting?
This fixes pro pool on bar tables
- Thread starter poolscholar
- Start date
Yes, but isn't that what ShootingArts was suggesting?
Let's face it. Bar tables are the way of the future because of money and the stubborn powers at be.
Now how can we progress and improve on this situation...even 4 inch pockets would make the game a lot better
Now how can we progress and improve on this situation...even 4 inch pockets would make the game a lot better
I just watched three hours of a chinese 8 ball match
I just watched a race to 13 playing chinese eight ball, took over three hours with a shot clock. Darren Appleton vs Ko Ping Yi. The match would have stretched even longer had they not been on a shot clock. They played twenty-four games in three hours and fifteen minutes.
I like the game and the table for playing. There wasn't much cheating the pockets and even a lot of spin could punish a player. Darren popped a ball out the pocket when it was within a few inches of the pocket and the cue ball about a foot away from the object ball!
Considering that the table made two top players look like bumbling idiots at times I would say it plays plenty tough, maybe too tough. There were a few break and runs though, 20-30 percent at a guess. I think this is about the right run-out ratio for spectators but other parts of the game played slowly. With the tough pockets there was much more moving and strategy than bangers and TV viewers would be likely to understand.
Might be the two players or the pressure of the match but I think the game plays too slow to attract the video game crowd or fast action sports fans. One game was starting to look like an uptable one pocket game. I think I would like these tables to play on, especially to wager on, not going to draw big sponsors or TV in the US, my opinion.
Back to the drawing board!
Hu
I just watched a race to 13 playing chinese eight ball, took over three hours with a shot clock. Darren Appleton vs Ko Ping Yi. The match would have stretched even longer had they not been on a shot clock. They played twenty-four games in three hours and fifteen minutes.
I like the game and the table for playing. There wasn't much cheating the pockets and even a lot of spin could punish a player. Darren popped a ball out the pocket when it was within a few inches of the pocket and the cue ball about a foot away from the object ball!
Considering that the table made two top players look like bumbling idiots at times I would say it plays plenty tough, maybe too tough. There were a few break and runs though, 20-30 percent at a guess. I think this is about the right run-out ratio for spectators but other parts of the game played slowly. With the tough pockets there was much more moving and strategy than bangers and TV viewers would be likely to understand.
Might be the two players or the pressure of the match but I think the game plays too slow to attract the video game crowd or fast action sports fans. One game was starting to look like an uptable one pocket game. I think I would like these tables to play on, especially to wager on, not going to draw big sponsors or TV in the US, my opinion.
Back to the drawing board!
Hu
I always wanted to have those Chinese 8B or English 8B custom made rails to put on my Valley. They would be better to put on a 7' or 8' Diamond. My Arthritis just did me in before I could pull the trigger on the rails. I haven't picked up a cue for over 6 months. My pool playing days are over. I have come to roll with that this time. I had 65 years of it and it was mostly gambling. Johnnyt
Anyone should be able to enjoy watching our top players showcase their skills, on any size table! But, until there is an active 'world body' governing the rules, etc., and a functioning Professional Players association, none of those things can ever happen! The chance of pool ever being accepted into the Olympics, can also never happen until the above somehow is put in place!
I also don't think it really matters what game is played, as long as it is fast paced, and easily understood, and can hold even a novice spectators interest. Its a far different world we live in today, then when pool was enjoying its 'glory years', (whenever that was)..There are so many distractions now, all vying for the same viewers time and attention..Pretty tough going up against the NFL, the NBA, or the PGA, not to mention texting, and taking 'selfies'! :embarrassed2:
One has to wonder if pool can ever even come close to competing?..It will probably always be limited, to being enjoyed only by us pool nuts who love the game?..Sadly, there just ain't enough of us to attract TV or big sponsor money..We need a gimmick, like poker had with 'Hold 'em'!..Any ideas..... anyone?
PS..IMO, a 'Reality TV' type of presentation will not work for pool!..Doesn't someone try that, about every other week? :sorry:
Poker pool ha ha ..U shoot the balls in to make the best 4 card hand..We were on the road gambling and we ran across it..It strategy and its easy for a person to follow aces or queens or whatever..16 balls Q -A .I know it sounds crazy but was a pretty awesome game.
Poker Pool was played in just about every one of the 100's of firehouses on Long Island, NY, back in the 1940's to 1960's. Fun Game. Johnnyt
When every shot that is shot up the rail jars the pocket automatically, I think you pocket tightening fans will start whining about how the table does not play right. It will be the mechanic's fault for not shimming something right when you miss or the cloth's fault. I have heard all these complaints where pockets have been tightened up. Seeing pros miss a lot of easy shots sure will make pool popular for TV won't it??????????
Presumably on Tv the tables would be made with a tighter pocket cut rather than being shimmed, so it shouldn't be a problem.
I thought the recent(ish) Chinese 8-Ball was pretty watchable and wasn't last years Mosconi Cup on a table with tighter pockets too?
Nothing will fix the small table. It will remain a boring buntfest, even more so with smaller pockets. If I were the OP I'd think carefully about what I wanted to achieve. You want fewer runouts? Over all tougher play? Then a snooker pocket cut and slower cloth may do that, but it will still be a small table. Nothing you do can change that. English pool is played on similar conditions to what I described and it is THE MOST BORING GAME IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. It does have smaller balls and an even smaller cueball, so that is different as well. When you scale up the table size to 9 foot, like in Chineese 8-ball, it suddenly gets a little bit more interesting and watchable. Not because of the pocket cut, because of the combination of slow cloth, tough pockets and an actual adult size table.
Pros should not play on 7 footers! It's incredible that one has to type such self evident truths nowadays, but it is made necessary. If anything, they should play on larger tables, 10 footers like they did in the good old days, with slower cloth and 4.5 inch pockets. Then we'd see who had a pool stroke and who didn't. Let's see the marginal pros try to run out with their poke-strokes and bunting then.
I was going to suggest this as a fix for bar tables, but I worry that it might not completely finish the job:
Pros should not play on 7 footers! It's incredible that one has to type such self evident truths nowadays, but it is made necessary. If anything, they should play on larger tables, 10 footers like they did in the good old days, with slower cloth and 4.5 inch pockets. Then we'd see who had a pool stroke and who didn't. Let's see the marginal pros try to run out with their poke-strokes and bunting then.
I was going to suggest this as a fix for bar tables, but I worry that it might not completely finish the job:
Attachments
Last edited:
I'm not advocating English pool or snooker pockets. Just diamond bar tables with smaller pockets. This would require more accurate position play and obviously pocketing as well.
I enjoy pool.....period......on any table........of any size or make......with any size pocket or felt.
Having said that.......in my opinion, in a perfect world all pool no matter the game would be played on a nine foot table.
Having said that.......in my opinion, in a perfect world all pool no matter the game would be played on a nine foot table.
The comments and opinions shared by everyone in this one new thread is exactly "WHY" and "HOW" pool has never been standardized and why there is always a "problem with pool" - everyone has a better answer and then someone turns that new answer into a reality with a different table SIZE, smaller POCKETS, shape and angle of pockets and rails, table bed HEIGHT and overall SIZE, CLOTH faster or slower, BALLS of every size variation and weight and on and on and on. If you can dream it, surely some manufacturer somewhere can produce it - and here we are.
Oh - it's about square footage this or dollars per hour that or skill level this or made for TV that --- the old adage of trying to please everyone. Let's tweak and twist every rule set while we're at it as well because heaven forbid we actually change to a different game - just have 29 ways to play 9 Ball....Some thinks it's too easy or should be made harder for those that are more highly skilled - the answer - change the equipment. Yeah, that's the answer.
Historically speaking, the game has always been in a constant state of flux for a few of the reasons I just mentioned above and I'll wager that collectively as a group of like-minded pool players, we can come up with EVERY reason pretty quick. But at the end of the day, no one wants to change anything. No one. They keep making something new to fill one more "need" the game has.
And here we set: we have no standard or regulatory committee people say....
Let's create a new organization with new letters and members - manufactures or players...maybe that will be the final fix. At least a bandaid.
Of all of the organizing committees and members out there (globally) that make them up - and I'll just mention ONE that 99% of us have heard of over our entire life span - the BCA - they all have different specs. Every one.
The "best" answer has been mention numerous times: standardize the game.
I'll use the term "OLYMPIC STANDARD" that cuts across every nation on this planet. Come up with an Olympic Standard for the tables and balls and all things governing those two primary elements in whatever discipline or game you like (Pool; Snooker; Billiards; Etc) and you'll have the fix.
There are 100's and 100's of different GAMES that can be played one way (recreationally or professionally) if you want to affect the difficulty.
Pick the game. 8 Ball, Rotation, Etc.
Or Pick the discipline. Snooker, Billiards, Pool, Etc.
And then you'll know which table and balls to put together for your time on the baize.
Just tossing out an idea - now, how do we execute?
Wait - we have to first agree on the fix. The STANDARDS.
Damn it - round and round we go and back to square hole number one....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh - it's about square footage this or dollars per hour that or skill level this or made for TV that --- the old adage of trying to please everyone. Let's tweak and twist every rule set while we're at it as well because heaven forbid we actually change to a different game - just have 29 ways to play 9 Ball....Some thinks it's too easy or should be made harder for those that are more highly skilled - the answer - change the equipment. Yeah, that's the answer.
Historically speaking, the game has always been in a constant state of flux for a few of the reasons I just mentioned above and I'll wager that collectively as a group of like-minded pool players, we can come up with EVERY reason pretty quick. But at the end of the day, no one wants to change anything. No one. They keep making something new to fill one more "need" the game has.
And here we set: we have no standard or regulatory committee people say....
Let's create a new organization with new letters and members - manufactures or players...maybe that will be the final fix. At least a bandaid.
Of all of the organizing committees and members out there (globally) that make them up - and I'll just mention ONE that 99% of us have heard of over our entire life span - the BCA - they all have different specs. Every one.
The "best" answer has been mention numerous times: standardize the game.
I'll use the term "OLYMPIC STANDARD" that cuts across every nation on this planet. Come up with an Olympic Standard for the tables and balls and all things governing those two primary elements in whatever discipline or game you like (Pool; Snooker; Billiards; Etc) and you'll have the fix.
There are 100's and 100's of different GAMES that can be played one way (recreationally or professionally) if you want to affect the difficulty.
Pick the game. 8 Ball, Rotation, Etc.
Or Pick the discipline. Snooker, Billiards, Pool, Etc.
And then you'll know which table and balls to put together for your time on the baize.
Just tossing out an idea - now, how do we execute?
Wait - we have to first agree on the fix. The STANDARDS.
Damn it - round and round we go and back to square hole number one....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Whoa! Careful here! Let's not bring Snooker into this discussion! I have said many, many times that those who wish to see Pool succeed commercially need to look to Snooker for a lesson in Marketing 101. It is (by far) the most successful cue sport both for participation and television viewership. If you refuse to convert to the actual game of Snooker, then perhaps you can learn a thing or two by converting your game of Pool over to a similar business model. But be patient; after all, it has taken Snooker about 140 years to get to the pinnacle where it is at now. Pool could probably bypass a number of decades in a path to success by following the Snooker protocol early on.
As far as "governing bodies" go, Snooker primarily has two: one for the professional game (WPBSA) and one for the amateur game (IBSF). Then all of the local governing bodies (unlike the Pool world) are amazingly non-egotistical and simply adopt and accept the authority of the primary governing bodies. Here is something VERY strange and curious....both these governing bodies endorse EXACTLY the same rule set. In fact, that rule set is written down and freely available to anyone and everyone who is interested in them from either organization. Every tournament, professional or amateur, is governed by this same rule set (though on occasion, some "house rules" such as shot clock may be added for a particular event but it is well understood that these rules are additions to the standardized rule set, not replacement rules). This is vastly different from the Rules of Pool which would appear to change with nearly every venue one sets foot in or with nearly every opponent one may challenge.
About authorized equipment, you need look no further in the Rule Book than page 1, Section 1., Equipment, "The Standard Table", where you will find the precise specifications of the table and other equipment required as authorized by both the WPBSA and the IBSF. And about making changes to the table....probably the last time that was done to any significant degree was the middle 1800's when rubber technology was greatly improved so the cushions became more consistent. Sure, there have been minor changes and improvements since then as materials technologies have advanced, but the basic table has been the same for literally hundreds of years.
You Pool people would do well to get some perspective.
Good post - and agreed nearly 100% -all except for your last sentence
Perhaps you Snooker people could be a little more compassionate with us pool people in the US since we like to do things the difficult way and forge new, foolish paths and try our level best to destroy a fabulous game - and by the way - we do have snooker over here....it's called American Snooker played on 10' tables - at least according to the BCA rule books.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just a quick note from the current BCA Equipment Specifications page, the pocket opening "standard" is still - and has been for decades - set at 4 7/8" minimum to 5 1/8" maximum. Most likely a reasonable tolerance from a manufacturing standpoint. 1/8" would most likely be too stringent and not allow enough room for all of the possible factors affecting the pocket openings from building to assembly. Again, just one point on standardization that is published and hasn't changed for decades. Neither have the ball weights and diameter tolerances.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really, does pro pool need "Fixing" because of the table size? Personally, I prefer playing 9' with standard pockets. When a well struck rail shot won't go, the pockets are too tight. But I'm no pro.
Watching streams, it seems to me that the same top players end up finishing in roughly the same order on either table size.
Watching streams, it seems to me that the same top players end up finishing in roughly the same order on either table size.
Good post - and agreed nearly 100% -all except for your last sentence
Perhaps you Snooker people could be a little more compassionate with us pool people in the US since we like to do things the difficult way and forge new, foolish paths and try our level best to destroy a fabulous game - and by the way - we do have snooker over here....it's called American Snooker played on 10' tables - at least according to the BCA rule books.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you! I do admit the last sentence was meant to be a bit of a "tweaker".
And I think you need to take a little closer look at my profile. You will be hard pressed to find someone with deeper American roots. I grew up with a(n admittedly shoddy) pool table in my parents' basement. While in service to our country and based in the U.K., I fell in love with what I consider to be the greatest of the cue sports. I just wish others among you could have a similar experience and perhaps you would see the light.Part of the draw of the game of Snooker is its standardization. I could literally meet someone in a snooker parlour (or pub) in some far off land, we may not even speak the same language, and we could just as well have a rousing and interesting frame of snooker.
I personally put it to American snobbery as to why we will not involve ourselves in the Snooker. The money can be fantastic and surely we have the talent amongst our best. Corey Deuel has given it a go and his attempt has been admirable. But we, as a nation, simply will not accept a World game at face value, we will try to mold it into something that WE like. Sadly, the only way an American kid will ever be any good at the Snooker is if he has held a snooker cue in hand since he was 8 or 10. Would have been nice if it could have been one of my kids but my wife (probably wisely) figures that snooker players are generally bums so she will have none of that.
As for "American Snooker", yes, many have mentioned that. I have done quite a bit of travel for my work, 43 states on record so far, and I have actively sought out snooker tables at places I have been. Have never met anyone who actually wanted to play a game of American Snooker so I can only attest to it as an urban legend until proven otherwise. Plenty of places have awful equipment that they may refer to as a "snukker table" but instead they play this horrendous game on it with the unlikely moniker of "Golf". By what people have said about American Snooker though, it would appear to have about as many variations as any other Pool game.
Well - your search his over - for I was once a young lad from the Dakotas and grew up from age 7 playing......American Snooker on a 5x10 Brunswick Snooker table - replete with all things dedicated to the game - from an 8' bridge handle to the swan rest as well as numbered and unnumbered Aramith balls. Back in 1971 it all started for me. Snooker. My first passion and experience on the baize. Still is ----- but now I play Snooker Pool on my 8' Brunswick as well as 100 other games. I even have my table marked for the game. One day the 10' and 12' Snooker tables will be back in my domain.
Snooker. What a game!
I dare not contest any other points you made for the grand game or why it has not been embraced over here with any passion other than a passing fancy --- where oh where is our Barry Hearn is all I can say for now...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Snooker. What a game!
I dare not contest any other points you made for the grand game or why it has not been embraced over here with any passion other than a passing fancy --- where oh where is our Barry Hearn is all I can say for now...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk