This might be the silliest question ever but...

oshua86

oshua86

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This question is in reference to this shot:

http://youtu.be/q87RaibKZLo

This is an old shot, it's been in several books, magazine articles and a bet shot. Everywhere it tells you to shoot this shot with "inside" English, on the video the shot it's on the left rail and the English used is left English. What I don't get it's why they all say that's inside English, to me, that is outside English. If you were technically cutting the ball to the left I can see how that would be left English, if anything the OB gets "thrown" to the right of the pocket opening, making left English outside English. Like I said this might be a silly question with a easy answer I'm over thinking but as soon as I saw that video I was like "wait a second, that's outside English" then I started thinking about everytime I've seen the shot and it's always been said that the shot it's made with inside English.
 
it's inside, the cue ball is deflecting immediately (you are cutting it left)

oshua86 said:
This question is in reference to this shot:

http://youtu.be/q87RaibKZLo

This is an old shot, it's been in several books, magazine articles and a bet shot. Everywhere it tells you to shoot this shot with "inside" English, on the video the shot it's on the left rail and the English used is left English. What I don't get it's why they all say that's inside English, to me, that is outside English. If you were technically cutting the ball to the left I can see how that would be left English, if anything the OB gets "thrown" to the right of the pocket opening, making left English outside English. Like I said this might be a silly question with a easy answer I'm over thinking but as soon as I saw that video I was like "wait a second, that's outside English" then I started thinking about everytime I've seen the shot and it's always been said that the shot it's made with inside English.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's inside, the cue ball is deflecting immediately (this means you are cutting it to the left), and the spin is countering it. This is why the cue ball end up off the rail a few inches after the shot. It's a "little bit" of inside. Great shot! I kinda like that one for some reason, seems like a shot I would {find a way to} use more often.
 
I understand your point, specially once you mention that the cueball ends up a few inches to the right of the rail. However, just for the sake of the argument. On that shot, you put left English, the cue ball will immediately squirt to the right and then swerve to the left again; the object ball will go down the rail slightly to the right of it's original line. So, if the cueball is swerving to the left and the object ball is going slightly to the right couldn't an argument be made that this is technically outside English?

CJ Wiley said:
Yes, it's inside, the cue ball is deflecting immediately (this means you are cutting it to the left), and the spin is countering it. This is why the cue ball end up off the rail a few inches after the shot. It's a "little bit" of inside. Great shot! I kinda like that one for some reason, seems like a shot I would {find a way to} use more often.
Click to expand...
 
if I put right english on the shot I'd feel like this was outside english

oshua86 said:
I understand your point, specially once you mention that the cueball ends up a few inches to the right of the rail. However, just for the sake of the argument. On that shot, you put left English, the cue ball will immediately squirt to the right and then swerve to the left again; the object ball will go down the rail slightly to the right of it's original line. So, if the cueball is swerving to the left and the object ball is going slightly to the right couldn't an argument be made that this is technically outside English?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it has time to "swerve," when I shoot this shot I'm doing it with the spin, I've never thought of it terms of swerving, only spinning.

Also, if I put right english on the shot I'd feel like this was "outside english," wouldn't you?
 
Here is the same shot in slow motion:

http://youtu.be/Pm-VDuGzJS4?t=2h47m40s

you can see how the cue ball squirts then swerves and its able to clear the side pocket and pocket the ball.

to answer your question if you were to put right english I would feel that's inside for that shot LOL.

Im not gonna go and say that EVERYONE is wrong as to how they explain that shot, I just can't get my head around the "inside" part of that shot.

CJ Wiley said:
I'm not sure it has time to "swerve," when I shoot this shot I'm doing it with the spin, I've never thought of it terms of swerving, only spinning.

Also, if I put right english on the shot I'd feel like this was "outside english," wouldn't you?
Click to expand...
 
The terms 'inside' and 'outside' English are determined by the cut angle of the shot. If there is no cut angle then there is no inside or outside. There is only left and right.
 
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that actually makes sense. We also have running english and reverse english. Wouldnt it be more adequate to say that this shot it's made with reverse english instead?

FranCrimi said:
The terms 'inside' and 'outside' English are determined by the cut angle of the shot. If there is no cut angle then there is no inside or outside. There is only left and right.
Click to expand...
 
well in that scenario the object ball is being thrown to the left pocket even tho its straight in, so technically right english on that diagram would be outside since the ball is being sent to the left.

But I do agree with the term rail side english better.

Bob Jewett said:
It's "rail side" english.

In the throw demonstration in the diagram http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif it's possible to get both the cue ball and the object ball to move towards the cushion to the left. Would you call that "inside" or "outside"?
Click to expand...
 
Bob Jewett said:
It's "rail side" english.

In the throw demonstration in the diagram http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif it's possible to get both the cue ball and the object ball to move towards the cushion to the left. Would you call that "inside" or "outside"?
Click to expand...

If the pocket is the target then there is a cut angle, regardless of how the shooter wishes to shoot the shot.

I think the exception would be when both balls act as one.
 
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oshua86 said:
Here is the same shot in slow motion:

http://youtu.be/Pm-VDuGzJS4?t=2h47m40s

you can see how the cue ball squirts then swerves and its able to clear the side pocket and pocket the ball.

to answer your question if you were to put right english I would feel that's inside for that shot LOL.

Im not gonna go and say that EVERYONE is wrong as to how they explain that shot, I just can't get my head around the "inside" part of that shot.
Click to expand...

Hi Yoshua,

I think you have wrapped you mind around it very well, only YOU can not call it 'inside' & I would not either given the angle that is created. Due to the approach angle of the spinning ball & the resulting angle the OB takes I think it would be more correct to call it ouside if those were the only two(2) options but as Ms. Crimi said, since there is no initial angle, right or left might be the way to go. Or, as Mr. Jewitt said, rail side is a good description. I think it might be better to use his terminology as it is consistent & a more simple process for the mind by always calling it 'rail side'.

Whatever works for you in your thought process is best for you. Whatever gets you to consistently make the shot. This is an example where the conventional terminology may be technically 'incorrect' & could be harmful. You know the difference. Make the choice that's best for you.

Best Wishes,
 
oshua86 said:
well in that scenario the object ball is being thrown to the left pocket even tho its straight in, so technically right english on that diagram would be outside since the ball is being sent to the left. ...
Click to expand...

Well, yes, but in the diagram the cue ball lands on the left side of the object ball but still cuts the object ball to the left. The "inside" and "outside" terms were not designed for such a shot.
 
I can't see the shot right now (youtube blocked at work), but I would think it would be simple for consistency sake to think of inside or outside in relation to the initial cut angle and alignment, regardless of any techniques used or cueball/object ball reactions from the applied english and stroke.
Scott
 
oshua86 said:
Here is the same shot in slow motion:

http://youtu.be/Pm-VDuGzJS4?t=2h47m40s

you can see how the cue ball squirts then swerves and its able to clear the side pocket and pocket the ball.

to answer your question if you were to put right english I would feel that's inside for that shot LOL.

Im not gonna go and say that EVERYONE is wrong as to how they explain that shot, I just can't get my head around the "inside" part of that shot.
Click to expand...
Seems to me your two examples are quite different. The first shot the OB must pass the side pocket and the other the CB. First is shot firm with little chance of swerve the other is longer and hit soft with plenty of time for swerve.
 
That's not the same scenario.

oshua86 said:
Here is the same shot in slow motion:

http://youtu.be/Pm-VDuGzJS4?t=2h47m40s

you can see how the cue ball squirts then swerves and its able to clear the side pocket and pocket the ball.

to answer your question if you were to put right english I would feel that's inside for that shot LOL.

Im not gonna go and say that EVERYONE is wrong as to how they explain that shot, I just can't get my head around the "inside" part of that shot.
Click to expand...

That's not the same scenario. Distance and shot speed are determining factors, this 2nd example is further away and shot speed is minimized.

The shot you set up to begin with you do have to cut slightly to the left (because of the cushion), so left is "inside english," and the result is the cue ball comes out from the rail after contact. If it was just a straight in shot with no cut the cue ball would stay on the rail after contact.

I, personally, would just do as your being advised and call it either "left" or "right" english, it's easier to communicate that way.
 
I would too. The terms "inside" and "outside" are confusing to many players. Most good instructors prefer to use the very descriptive terms "right" or "left" english. That will never be misunderstood.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

CJ Wiley said:
I, personally, would just do as your being advised and call it either "left" or "right" english, it's easier to communicate that way.
Click to expand...
 
I always thought that the pocket you were shooting into would tell you. If you are shooting into a pocket on the right, then inside = right.. or is that wrong?
 
I think the terms "inside" and "outside" are useful. In a mirror-image shot reversal, for example shooting a spot shot to the left or the right corner pocket, saying to use right draw to kill the cue ball off the side rail works for only one of the two shots. If you say to use outside draw and go to the side cushion, the idea is clear.

When stated clearly, the terminology is not confusing.
 
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