Thoughts on cue making

T

Travis Niklich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just watched the Gina cue video last night and it really made me think about somethings and ideas on cue making. I think what has made Ernie such a great cue maker was his willingness to seek the knowledge to do things him self not just rely on others to make things for him. Same way with Bill Schick do you think he would be where he is today had he had sent every thing out to be engraved. When you take something to be worked on by someone else you don't learn. there is a certain reward in taking a pile of aluminum or steel and making a tool that you can use to make cues and in doing so you learn more. Last year I got to hang out at a machine shop to help on a shaft machine I was working on with the owner. At the end of a couple of weeks he just handed me a bunch of parts and said sorry but the shop was sold and he would not do any more work on it so I took what I had learned from them and got a couple books on machine shop work and took on finishing it myself. It was not easy but I learned a lot. I think too many cue makers today want a cue shop in a box just add wood and tada you have a cue. I have changed a lot from when I first started. When I first met Andy Gilbert I thought why would I want to cut shafts and do my own points I can pay someone else to do that. Now I realize that if you don't do those things you just miss out on a lot. Last night I remembered something my Father told me. I was like 17-18 and wanted to learn more about cabinet making and asked him about buying one of those really cool work benches you see in the wood working mags that were like 2k. He told me if a cabinet maker had to buy his own work bench he sure as hell was no cabinet maker. Just now it really made sense what he said. I would really love to see more cue makers help each other on here but how can you as soon as you post up how to make something or a pic of a jig next thing you know someone on here is selling them. My best advice to all cue makers who want to learn is to get some books or take some night classes on how to do some machine shop work you will gain so much more than you realize. I don't think you can learn how to do everything when it comes to cues things like scrimshaw but if you know the basics of how it is done you will be better off. Andy once told me it would take a while as my shop was still young and needed some time to grow and to put some effort into it to make it better. Just some of my thoughts hope they help
Sincerely
Travis Niklich
 
Tap, Tap, 2 nights a week in a machine shop for me keeps the door and options open for my little toys and fixtures. I don't know where the Pixie dust and Elves came from but I'm thankful for it.:grin:
 
Travis Niklich said:
I just watched the Gina cue video last night and it really made me think about somethings and ideas on cue making. I think what has made Ernie such a great cue maker was his willingness to seek the knowledge to do things him self not just rely on others to make things for him. Same way with Bill Schick do you think he would be where he is today had he had sent every thing out to be engraved. When you take something to be worked on by someone else you don't learn. there is a certain reward in taking a pile of aluminum or steel and making a tool that you can use to make cues and in doing so you learn more. Last year I got to hang out at a machine shop to help on a shaft machine I was working on with the owner. At the end of a couple of weeks he just handed me a bunch of parts and said sorry but the shop was sold and he would not do any more work on it so I took what I had learned from them and got a couple books on machine shop work and took on finishing it myself. It was not easy but I learned a lot. I think too many cue makers today want a cue shop in a box just add wood and tada you have a cue. I have changed a lot from when I first started. When I first met Andy Gilbert I thought why would I want to cut shafts and do my own points I can pay someone else to do that. Now I realize that if you don't do those things you just miss out on a lot. Last night I remembered something my Father told me. I was like 17-18 and wanted to learn more about cabinet making and asked him about buying one of those really cool work benches you see in the wood working mags that were like 2k. He told me if a cabinet maker had to buy his own work bench he sure as hell was no cabinet maker. Just now it really made sense what he said. I would really love to see more cue makers help each other on here but how can you as soon as you post up how to make something or a pic of a jig next thing you know someone on here is selling them. My best advice to all cue makers who want to learn is to get some books or take some night classes on how to do some machine shop work you will gain so much more than you realize. I don't think you can learn how to do everything when it comes to cues things like scrimshaw but if you know the basics of how it is done you will be better off. Andy once told me it would take a while as my shop was still young and needed some time to grow and to put some effort into it to make it better. Just some of my thoughts hope they help
Sincerely
Travis Niklich
Click to expand...

I totally agree with your thoughts, and I think it is funny that with all the people making cues today that most would not agree with what you have said above. Today with all the cue parts available on the secondary market, it is not rocket science to slap parts together and call the final product a cue. In fact it has also become common practice for many never lets others know they are doing nothing more than that. Buyers are getting starting to ask questions, and most knowledgeable collectors would not touch these cues with a ten foot pole.

A few months back I a conversation with Bill Schick and CNC Machinery came into our conversation. Bill told me plainly that he was told in no uncertain terms back in the 80's by his customers that they would lose interest in his cues if he started using CNC Machinery. Bill went on to say that this is way he never changed his building techniques to include CNC Equipment.

With the advent of the Chinese invasion of the cue market in the 1990's CNC, V-spliced / inlay-ed points became all the rage and for a very reasonable price. Which American production and Custom cue makers could not compete with. Floating points became the next great moved in the hands of the general public and CNC Milling and Machining techniques became very popular. During this time frame many of the new cue builders have moved to CNC Machinery.

I think your concept of cue making will carry you into the future. There will always be a market hands on craftsmanship that will never be by passed with machines. I truly believe that this the only area to focus ones energies for long term success.

Thanks for your post.
 
cnc

I'm not trying to get into the cnc vs non cnc cue just so you know I do have a cnc machine that I do all my inlay work on. There is a huge difference between doing sharp corner inlay work and inlays with very large radius corners. What people need to understand is that when you program your own cnc that it is just as hard if not harder to do than any other method of inlay. You have to learn a lot to make a cnc run and cut right it is much more than press a button and walk away like most think. A cnc machine is just another tool to use in the shop the reason I like it is it gives me more freedom in how I design a cue I no longer have to make a pattern or have to have one made and start over if I don't like it with a cnc you can make changes to the drawing you already made then rewrite the G-code and see what you have. I use to do all my inlays on a gorton/Famco pantograph but it just killed my back and I was somewhat limited in what I could do with it. There as some guys who can do some unbelievable work with them Bill Schick and Andy Gilbert come to mind. Andy told me he would never talk to me again if I bought a cnc but I proved to him you could do more than just floating points and large inlays with one we are still good friends 3-4 years later.
Travis
 
Bill McDaniel used CNC and he made great cues with sharp corners.
I don't see any collectors dropping their McDaniel cues now...

I agree with Travis that most people have the wrong impression when the here CNC and pool cues in the same sentence.
I also believe that there will be always room for all known cue construction methods and new methods that will come down the road.

I think that as long as the cue maker keeps the quality of the work then it doesn't matter how it's built. If CNC would cut the line for SW to 2 years then I say go for it as long as the quality and looks of the cue is kept.
 
manwon said:
With the advent of the Chinese invasion of the cue market in the 1990's CNC, V-spliced / inlay-ed points became all the rage and for a very reasonable price. Which American production and Custom cue makers could not compete with. Floating points became the next great moved in the hands of the general public and CNC Milling and Machining techniques became very popular. During this time frame many of the new cue builders have moved to CNC Machinery.

I think your concept of cue making will carry you into the future. There will always be a market hands on craftsmanship that will never be by passed with machines. I truly believe that this the only area to focus ones energies for long term success.

Thanks for your post.
Click to expand...

V-groove inlaid points were not an invention of the Chinese when it comes to cues. Nor were floating points. Pretty much 99% of the methods that the Chinese use to build cues - at least the ones worth playing with - are done according to techniques developed by Americans and taught to the Chinese by American cue makers.

99.95% of the cues made are made using machines tuned to automate the processes as much as possible. Thomas Wayne once provided up with an example of a cue maker who did in fact make his cue using a pocket knife. That's the only example I know of where the cue was made without any sort of electrically powered tools.

If anything that was the whole point of Ernie's methodology. Spend time automating the repetitive tasks so that there is more time for the creative ones.

Even if Bill Schick doesn't use a CNC I would bet that he has dedicated machines that are set up and calibrated for specific tasks.

All the CNC does is offer greater versatility on some levels. However it also offers greater challenges on others.

Putting decoration aside for a moment, I would think that there is going to be little to no difference in a cue that comes out of a shop where every process is CNC controlled and one which comes out of a shop where every process is manually calibrated. If all the machines are set properly then the two cues ought to be nearly identical in construction, assuming the steps and method of construction were the same for both.

The thing that sets Ernie and other innovative cue makers apart is their ability to create the machines and jigs to solve problems and satisfy needs. Other cue makers have benefited from this by having something of a blueprint to follow. What makes Ernie a pioneer and an original is that he didn't have a Porper Lathe, pre-made collets, a cue-parts business to buy from, videos and books to guide (or hinder) him, nor anyone teaching cue-making. All that came out of the pioneering efforts of people like himself and Burton Spain.

This isn't really so much a debate over CNC vs. non-CNC shops as it is over self-reliance and assisted living.

After seeing the Ginacue video I think that this is where the distinction lies in whether someone deserves the moniker of cue "maker" or not. While I still think that a person who is "assisted" in the making of the cue through the purchase of pre-made parts can legitimately be called a cue maker they know that they are not a cue-maker on par with an Ernie Gutierrez until they can do it all themselves.
 
cnc

Well said my friend that was some of the points I tried to make but you said it much better than me. Maybe next time I will give you a call and let you clean up some of my thoughts before I post.
 
Everyone is entitled to thier own opinions, I wish you all the luck in the world, but I will stick with Bill Schick, Hailey, and a few others because for Big Dollar cues, I expect hands on Craftsmanship.
 
JB Cases said:
V-groove inlaid points were not an invention of the Chinese when it comes to cues. Nor were floating points. Pretty much 99% of the methods that the Chinese use to build cues - at least the ones worth playing with - are done according to techniques developed by Americans and taught to the Chinese by American cue makers.

99.95% of the cues made are made using machines tuned to automate the processes as much as possible. Thomas Wayne once provided up with an example of a cue maker who did in fact make his cue using a pocket knife. That's the only example I know of where the cue was made without any sort of electrically powered tools.

If anything that was the whole point of Ernie's methodology. Spend time automating the repetitive tasks so that there is more time for the creative ones.

Even if Bill Schick doesn't use a CNC I would bet that he has dedicated machines that are set up and calibrated for specific tasks.

All the CNC does is offer greater versatility on some levels. However it also offers greater challenges on others.

Putting decoration aside for a moment, I would think that there is going to be little to no difference in a cue that comes out of a shop where every process is CNC controlled and one which comes out of a shop where every process is manually calibrated. If all the machines are set properly then the two cues ought to be nearly identical in construction, assuming the steps and method of construction were the same for both.

The thing that sets Ernie and other innovative cue makers apart is their ability to create the machines and jigs to solve problems and satisfy needs. Other cue makers have benefited from this by having something of a blueprint to follow. What makes Ernie a pioneer and an original is that he didn't have a Porper Lathe, pre-made collets, a cue-parts business to buy from, videos and books to guide (or hinder) him, nor anyone teaching cue-making. All that came out of the pioneering efforts of people like himself and Burton Spain.

This isn't really so much a debate over CNC vs. non-CNC shops as it is over self-reliance and assisted living.

After seeing the Ginacue video I think that this is where the distinction lies in whether someone deserves the moniker of cue "maker" or not. While I still think that a person who is "assisted" in the making of the cue through the purchase of pre-made parts can legitimately be called a cue maker they know that they are not a cue-maker on par with an Ernie Gutierrez until they can do it all themselves.
Click to expand...


Tap..Tap..I agree.

I personally think some of the best hand made cues come from the master craftsman in the Phillipine. With limited Machinery, these cue builders are building some of the best looking cues in the market for a fraction of a price. Designed wise, these guys are up there but they are still lacking in playability and most of that has to do with the inability to identify or gather good shaft wood. The work put out by these craftsmans and cue builder are way under rated. In 5-10 years time, you'll probably have cue builders from Asia that will have no problem competing with the best in America. As demand for cues increases in Asia, hopefully more investments will flow into the billiard industry over there and maybe we'll have cue builders that will be up there with today's great.

It would be great if there are more international cue builders...imagine all the choices a player will have and the creativity that each country culture and influences can bring to this game!! Arthur Cues is a great example of an international cue builder that have step up....love to see someone from Asia doing the same caliber of work. I've seen excellent cue works from builders in Japan and the Phillipine (Vhante, Miranda,Masudo?? comes to mind)!

Here's an example: To make it play amazing all I had to do was have 2 custom shafts made for it...the cue was made with a laminated handle and I was told all the pocket was hand cut and along with it's inlay. Everything on this cue is symmetrical as well, it has been my playing cue for last 3 years.

140596521_o.jpg


Regards,
Duc.
 
Last edited:
Travis Niklich said:
I just watched the Gina cue video last night and it really made me think about somethings and ideas on cue making. I think what has made Ernie such a great cue maker was his willingness to seek the knowledge to do things him self not just rely on others to make things for him. Same way with Bill Schick do you think he would be where he is today had he had sent every thing out to be engraved. When you take something to be worked on by someone else you don't learn. there is a certain reward in taking a pile of aluminum or steel and making a tool that you can use to make cues and in doing so you learn more. Last year I got to hang out at a machine shop to help on a shaft machine I was working on with the owner. At the end of a couple of weeks he just handed me a bunch of parts and said sorry but the shop was sold and he would not do any more work on it so I took what I had learned from them and got a couple books on machine shop work and took on finishing it myself. It was not easy but I learned a lot. I think too many cue makers today want a cue shop in a box just add wood and tada you have a cue. I have changed a lot from when I first started. When I first met Andy Gilbert I thought why would I want to cut shafts and do my own points I can pay someone else to do that. Now I realize that if you don't do those things you just miss out on a lot. Last night I remembered something my Father told me. I was like 17-18 and wanted to learn more about cabinet making and asked him about buying one of those really cool work benches you see in the wood working mags that were like 2k. He told me if a cabinet maker had to buy his own work bench he sure as hell was no cabinet maker. Just now it really made sense what he said. I would really love to see more cue makers help each other on here but how can you as soon as you post up how to make something or a pic of a jig next thing you know someone on here is selling them. My best advice to all cue makers who want to learn is to get some books or take some night classes on how to do some machine shop work you will gain so much more than you realize. I don't think you can learn how to do everything when it comes to cues things like scrimshaw but if you know the basics of how it is done you will be better off. Andy once told me it would take a while as my shop was still young and needed some time to grow and to put some effort into it to make it better. Just some of my thoughts hope they help
Sincerely
Travis Niklich
Click to expand...
tap tap tap
 
Travis Niklich said:
I just watched the Gina cue video last night and it really made me think about somethings and ideas on cue making. I think what has made Ernie such a great cue maker was his willingness to seek the knowledge to do things him self not just rely on others to make things for him. Same way with Bill Schick do you think he would be where he is today had he had sent every thing out to be engraved. When you take something to be worked on by someone else you don't learn. there is a certain reward in taking a pile of aluminum or steel and making a tool that you can use to make cues and in doing so you learn more. Last year I got to hang out at a machine shop to help on a shaft machine I was working on with the owner. At the end of a couple of weeks he just handed me a bunch of parts and said sorry but the shop was sold and he would not do any more work on it so I took what I had learned from them and got a couple books on machine shop work and took on finishing it myself. It was not easy but I learned a lot. I think too many cue makers today want a cue shop in a box just add wood and tada you have a cue. I have changed a lot from when I first started. When I first met Andy Gilbert I thought why would I want to cut shafts and do my own points I can pay someone else to do that. Now I realize that if you don't do those things you just miss out on a lot. Last night I remembered something my Father told me. I was like 17-18 and wanted to learn more about cabinet making and asked him about buying one of those really cool work benches you see in the wood working mags that were like 2k. He told me if a cabinet maker had to buy his own work bench he sure as hell was no cabinet maker. Just now it really made sense what he said. I would really love to see more cue makers help each other on here but how can you as soon as you post up how to make something or a pic of a jig next thing you know someone on here is selling them. My best advice to all cue makers who want to learn is to get some books or take some night classes on how to do some machine shop work you will gain so much more than you realize. I don't think you can learn how to do everything when it comes to cues things like scrimshaw but if you know the basics of how it is done you will be better off. Andy once told me it would take a while as my shop was still young and needed some time to grow and to put some effort into it to make it better. Just some of my thoughts hope they help
Sincerely
Travis Niklich
Click to expand...

There's no lesson like a self taught one................
Now I'm gonna have to take the time to watch the interview.


<~~~finding that time is the hard part.......................
 
Hey

As a collector I think that if you are designing and personally building your own cues, and the outcome is an increduble work of art, your a master cuebuilder in my book. If you are letting someone do a few things like scrimshaw, engraving, whatever and are upfront to your customers, you are still a master. I am more interested in the integrity of the builder and the beauty of the finished product. Its great knowing that a lot of you guys are out there trying to dvelop your skills and become better craftsman, I tip my hat to you all.
But to me, if your buying half or all the cue in parts and telling everyone you did it........your a snake......Just my opinion
Steve
 
tikkler said:
As a collector I think that if you are designing and personally building your own cues, and the outcome is an increduble work of art, your a master cuebuilder in my book. If you are letting someone do a few things like scrimshaw, engraving, whatever and are upfront to your customers, you are still a master. I am more interested in the integrity of the builder and the beauty of the finished product. Its great knowing that a lot of you guys are out there trying to dvelop your skills and become better craftsman, I tip my hat to you all.
But to me, if your buying half or all the cue in parts and telling everyone you did it........your a snake......Just my opinion
Steve
Click to expand...

Your a good guy in my book, Steve.
 
Interesting :)

Tikkler,

Obviously your not to happy with some cuemaker (s) ?

You have a beautiful collection as we all know and I thank you for sharing and also your comments.

Care to share anymore information, you probably won't because your a classy guy, but I know you want to !!

It's away's good to get things off your chest :smile:


Tommyd1
 
tikkler said:
As a collector I think that if you are designing and personally building your own cues, and the outcome is an increduble work of art, your a master cuebuilder in my book. If you are letting someone do a few things like scrimshaw, engraving, whatever and are upfront to your customers, you are still a master. I am more interested in the integrity of the builder and the beauty of the finished product. Its great knowing that a lot of you guys are out there trying to dvelop your skills and become better craftsman, I tip my hat to you all.
But to me, if your buying half or all the cue in parts and telling everyone you did it........your a snake......Just my opinion
Steve
Click to expand...

But to me, if your buying half or all the cue in parts and telling everyone you did it........your a snake......Just my opinion
Steve[/QUOTE]

Tap Tap tap, I totally agree Steve!!!!! Great post:smile:
 
Hey

Tommy, I thank you for the very nice comments. I run my life and my business being up front and honest 100% of the time. And I respect and am loyal to others that do the same. At this time I love giving my opinion, but I dont see myself as being the Cuebuiders policem LOL. Not yet anyway, but maybe soon
Thanks.....Steve
 
cnc

The whole cnc vs non cnc will not make any difference in 5-10 years as it will become the standard by then. It will be like comparing a BETA MAX to a VHS 15 years ago now look both are made obsolete by the DVD and in another 1-2 years DVD will be obsolete too. There are a lot of cue makers who use cnc but hide it and even more who would love to use one but don't want to learn how to use it. Look at all the cue makers that are pushing the envelope of cue design are using cnc( Black Boar, Black, Gina, JW, Searing)
 
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