Thoughts on cue making

I have to disagree with you and many others here on this subject. First of all everyone says well try and program the equipment and see how hard it is. Well, 99% of the cue makers using this equipment don't program the equipment, they have a programmer do the work for them, so they are buying programs for cue making. Once a program is completed it can be saved and used over and over and over again, in exactly the same format, to do the same job or as part of other job's. This is the definition of production, and this is exactly what some one would want to achieve in any production facility.
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Craig....I'm not sure where you have found the numbers on 99%. But I definitely disagree with them. I don't have any proof but based on personal experience and talking to the ones who do use robotics, I would have to say 99% of them do their own design work. Some started out using programs that may have came with certain machines they have invested in but very soon after found them boring and needed to expand their brain cell.
Henry Ford is probably known as our modern day innovator of the production line and I don't believe he had one cnc machine anywhere on his lines when he started the "production line assembly" of Ford autos.
"Production" in my mind is simply stream lining your set up to achieve optimum results with the tools we have to work with. Making your work go smoother, quicker and being less stressful from having to back track and do the same procedure over and over again which in essence is time consuming and a waste of human intelligence IF one has the capability and capacity to better achieve for themselves.
So in closing......ANYONE that does an operation that is repetitive and does the same op more than once in a row every time, is basically considered a production shop. Unless you build everything, one cue at a time, from start to finish you are doing some type of production.
What tools you use to do this with whether a hammer and chisel or a robot does not determine if you are a product of production but HOW productive you are with your time.

I greatly agree with you that it would be an absolute shame to lose the same type of craftsmanship that our fore fathers put in front of us but I don't believe that will ever happen. Look at the "hand crafted" furniture industry and you'll find some still doing the no nails assembly and pounding pegs in with a wooden hammer. It's a style and technique that will never die, just simmer down from a boil. The same with cue crafting. God bless those who never turn on a computer and produce a quality product but they could still be doing "production cues".

<~~~needs more "production" in my shop....................
 
JoeyInCali said:
but like I said 99% of the people using this equipment do not program it
Craig, you mean 99% do not draw their own designs?
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No they do not program their own designs, they pay someelse to write the program.
 
manwon said:
No they do not program their own designs, they pay someone else to write the program.
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They're not artists then.
Designs are not programmed btw.
You can draw them on corel, any cad/3d or cam or other drawing software.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Craig....I'm not sure where you have found the numbers on 99%. But I definitely disagree with them. I don't have any proof but based on personal experience and talking to the ones who do use robotics, I would have to say 99% of them do their own design work. Some started out using programs that may have came with certain machines they have invested in but very soon after found them boring and needed to expand their brain cell.
Henry Ford is probably known as our modern day innovator of the production line and I don't believe he had one cnc machine anywhere on his lines when he started the "production line assembly" of Ford autos.
"Production" in my mind is simply stream lining your set up to achieve optimum results with the tools we have to work with. Making your work go smoother, quicker and being less stressful from having to back track and do the same procedure over and over again which in essence is time consuming and a waste of human intelligence IF one has the capability and capacity to better achieve for themselves.
So in closing......ANYONE that does an operation that is repetitive and does the same op more than once in a row every time, is basically considered a production shop. Unless you build everything, one cue at a time, from start to finish you are doing some type of production.
What tools you use to do this with whether a hammer and chisel or a robot does not determine if you are a product of production but HOW productive you are with your time.

I greatly agree with you that it would be an absolute shame to lose the same type of craftsmanship that our fore fathers put in front of us but I don't believe that will ever happen. Look at the "hand crafted" furniture industry and you'll find some still doing the no nails assembly and pounding pegs in with a wooden hammer. It's a style and technique that will never die, just simmer down from a boil. The same with cue crafting. God bless those who never turn on a computer and produce a quality product but they could still be doing "production cues".

<~~~needs more "production" in my shop....................
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Craig....I'm not sure where you have found the numbers on 99%. But I definitely disagree with them. I don't have any proof but based on personal experience and talking to the ones who do use robotics, I would have to say 99% of them do their own design work. Some started out using programs that may have came with certain machines they have invested in but very soon after found them boring and needed to expand their brain cell.

Drawing up your own designs and writing the necessary programs are two different things. For instance many programs written for a certain task can be upgraded for changes or to incorporate an addition task into the equation.

Most of the cue makers using this technology are not writing their own programs and do not know how to. In fact some of the programers are also drawing up some of the designs used by those cue makers. We have programers right here on the forum who work doing just those things for cue makers.

Take care Dave, thanks for taking the time to give your perspective on this subject.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
They're not artists then.
Designs are not programmed btw.
You can draw them on corel, any cad/3d or cam or other drawing software.
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Joey twist the words however, they fit into your thought pattern:wink: . I will stand by what I have said, I just don't have time to break things down for some one who has an agenda;) . You know exactly what I am saying whether you agree with it of not is up to you.:smile:

Take care, thnaks for your thoughts Joey!!!
 
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Tony Zinzola said:
Craig, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you. I just had a similar conversation with Kenny Murrell today. He's been helping me out a ton with my machine. People seem to associate CNC with round inlays. My inlays are not round. I also don't ever intend on using inlaid points.

I've had a buyer look over a cue of mine for over 45 minutes with a jewelers loop before he finally decided he'd take it. This was on a cue where the only inlays were in my rings. If that had been the cue I just did with 140 tiny inlays in the butt and I had done it on the pantograph, there is no doubt in my mind, he would have found some flaw and passed on the cue.

It's also not as easy as people seem to think. I've been working on the same program for over a day. It's close, but not quite there. I think one of the differences is that I know it's possible to get it perfect. With the pantograph, I'd of said it's close enough about 5 versions ago and went ahead with it. With the CNC, I won't cut into the cue until I am 100% satisfied, even if I end up scrapping the entire idea after days of work.
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Tony, I dont feel that way at all, and I know that the process involved is not easy. However, technology becomes more user friendly every day this technology has come light years since the 1980's. Like I said, very few are doing the work themselves, they have others do the work for them.

Thanks Tony for taking the time to explain your thoughts.
 
manwon said:
Joey twist the words however, they fit into your thought pattern:wink: . I will stand by what I have said, I just don't have time to break things down for some one who has an agenda;) . You know exactly what I am saying whether you agree with it of not is up to you.:smile:

Take care, thnaks for your thoughts Joey!!!
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IF a maker uses canned programs and drawings, sigh.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Inlay,_pearl/Pre-cut_inlays.html
Of course you can buy those inlays to keep costs down and draw them yourself too.
 
manwon said:
Craig....I'm not sure where you have found the numbers on 99%. But I definitely disagree with them. I don't have any proof but based on personal experience and talking to the ones who do use robotics, I would have to say 99% of them do their own design work. Some started out using programs that may have came with certain machines they have invested in but very soon after found them boring and needed to expand their brain cell.

Drawing up your own designs and writing the necessary programs are two different things. For instance many programs written for a certain task can be upgraded for changes or to incorporate an addition task into the equation.

Most of the cue makers using this technology are not writing their own programs and do not know how to. In fact some of the programers are also drawing up some of the designs used by those cue makers. We have programers right here on the forum who work doing just those things for cue makers.

Take care Dave, thanks for taking the time to give your perspective on this subject.
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Your absolutely correct here. They are definitely two different things. But writing your own programs went out with 8 tracks. So yes, I would say 100% of the users do not write their own programs. I have done some of my own for straight line projects...what a pain in the ass...now throw in some arcs and splines and you have to be a hardcore, old timer to figure out the I and J commands for them without the use of a post processor.

Drawing them though is a horse of a different color. CAD programs(some) today are very user friendly and within a few weeks to a month one can learn to draw simple designs such as diamonds and other commonly used inlays patterns.
I believe what you are referring to is some subbing out their CAD designs because they don't want to take the time or maybe don't have the capacity to be able to learn how to do it. That point was directed to the ones who will always be using premade parts to put their end product to finish line.

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing and not two different arenas.

Point was made though and I agree 100% that it the indian and not the arrow that makes the meat come to the table.
You can give two different individuals the exact same tooling, and the same pile of wood and have two totally different end results.


<~~~needs more tooling and wood for my habit..................
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Your absolutely correct here. They are definitely two different things. But writing your own programs went out with 8 tracks. So yes, I would say 100% of the users do not write their own programs. I have done some of my own for straight line projects...what a pain in the ass...now throw in some arcs and splines and you have to be a hardcore, old timer to figure out the I and J commands for them without the use of a post processor.

Drawing them though is a horse of a different color. CAD programs(some) today are very user friendly and within a few weeks to a month one can learn to draw simple designs such as diamonds and other commonly used inlays patterns.
I believe what you are referring to is some subbing out their CAD designs because they don't want to take the time or maybe don't have the capacity to be able to learn how to do it. That point was directed to the ones who will always be using premade parts to put their end product to finish line.

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing and not two different arenas.

Point was made though and I agree 100% that it the indian and not the arrow that makes the meat come to the table.
You can give two different individuals the exact same tooling, and the same pile of wood and have two totally different end results.


<~~~needs more tooling and wood for my habit..................
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Thanks Dave, I appreciate your thoughts, it takes me awhile to be clear on my thoughts sometimes.

Take care
 
Travis Niklich said:
I just watched the Gina cue video last night and it really made me think about somethings and ideas on cue making. I think what has made Ernie such a great cue maker was his willingness to seek the knowledge to do things him self not just rely on others to make things for him. Same way with Bill Schick do you think he would be where he is today had he had sent every thing out to be engraved. When you take something to be worked on by someone else you don't learn. there is a certain reward in taking a pile of aluminum or steel and making a tool that you can use to make cues and in doing so you learn more. Last year I got to hang out at a machine shop to help on a shaft machine I was working on with the owner. At the end of a couple of weeks he just handed me a bunch of parts and said sorry but the shop was sold and he would not do any more work on it so I took what I had learned from them and got a couple books on machine shop work and took on finishing it myself. It was not easy but I learned a lot. I think too many cue makers today want a cue shop in a box just add wood and tada you have a cue. I have changed a lot from when I first started. When I first met Andy Gilbert I thought why would I want to cut shafts and do my own points I can pay someone else to do that. Now I realize that if you don't do those things you just miss out on a lot. Last night I remembered something my Father told me. I was like 17-18 and wanted to learn more about cabinet making and asked him about buying one of those really cool work benches you see in the wood working mags that were like 2k. He told me if a cabinet maker had to buy his own work bench he sure as hell was no cabinet maker. Just now it really made sense what he said. I would really love to see more cue makers help each other on here but how can you as soon as you post up how to make something or a pic of a jig next thing you know someone on here is selling them. My best advice to all cue makers who want to learn is to get some books or take some night classes on how to do some machine shop work you will gain so much more than you realize. I don't think you can learn how to do everything when it comes to cues things like scrimshaw but if you know the basics of how it is done you will be better off. Andy once told me it would take a while as my shop was still young and needed some time to grow and to put some effort into it to make it better. Just some of my thoughts hope they help
Sincerely
Travis Niklich
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Great thread Travis.

To bad it has gotten a little off track.

I have to finish watching the ginacue video, but the first half was great. I have been learning to build cues off and on for a few years now and love designing and building my own fixtures and tooling. I already had a mill, lathe, CNC mill, CNC router, bandsaws, etc. To make cues, I had to design and make a taper bar, indexing fixture and indexing sleeves for cutting inlays, points, and recuts, quickchange router mount, delrin collets, and others. I am currently working on a new idea for fixturing and making fullspliced blanks. Ernie is an inspiration.

As far as the CNC debate. I have been programming and running CNC mills, Routers, lathes since 1992. I have hand drawn parts, wrote the g code myself, and typed it into the machine. I have also modeled and drawn parts and Assemblies in Pro E, SDRC, Solidworks, and Autocad and modeled all tooling and programmed them using EZ Cam, Mastercam, and Virtual Gibbs. I think most people watch to many videos or HOW IT's MADE or something and don't realize how much work it takes to a concept through design, CAD, programming, setup and tooling, to a finished part.

Could you setup a CNC shop to make 1,000 cues a month? Yes, but you your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars and a heck of a lot of time.

I think most custom cuemakers that are making 40 - 100+ cues a year and are using CNC's as a better tool that allows them to create and accurately execute new designs that have not been done before. CAD, CAM, CNC's are tools that give you endless possibilities. I can't imagine being limited to only what I can make on a manual mill or lathe.

That being said, CNC is just a tool. The best designs and craftsmen will still rise to the top and 90% of everything is crap. It will just be more accurate crap.

My 2 cents.

Troy
 
Troy Mckune said:
Great thread Travis.

To bad it has gotten a little off track.

I have to finish watching the ginacue video, but the first half was great. I have been learning to build cues off and on for a few years now and love designing and building my own fixtures and tooling. I already had a mill, lathe, CNC mill, CNC router, bandsaws, etc. To make cues, I had to design and make a taper bar, indexing fixture and indexing sleeves for cutting inlays, points, and recuts, quickchange router mount, delrin collets, and others. I am currently working on a new idea for fixturing and making fullspliced blanks. Ernie is an inspiration.

As far as the CNC debate. I have been programming and running CNC mills, Routers, lathes since 1992. I have hand drawn parts, wrote the g code myself, and typed it into the machine. I have also modeled and drawn parts and Assemblies in Pro E, SDRC, Solidworks, and Autocad and modeled all tooling and programmed them using EZ Cam, Mastercam, and Virtual Gibbs. I think most people watch to many videos or HOW IT's MADE or something and don't realize how much work it takes to a concept through design, CAD, programming, setup and tooling, to a finished part.

Could you setup a CNC shop to make 1,000 cues a month? Yes, but you your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars and a heck of a lot of time.

I think most custom cuemakers that are making 40 - 100+ cues a year and are using CNC's as a better tool that allows them to create and accurately execute new designs that have not been done before. CAD, CAM, CNC's are tools that give you endless possibilities. I can't imagine being limited to only what I can make on a manual mill or lathe.

That being said, CNC is just a tool. The best designs and craftsmen will still rise to the top and 90% of everything is crap. It will just be more accurate crap.

My 2 cents.

Troy
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Thanks for your thoughts Troy, it is very refreshing!! But, please answer this question, since you obviously have a great deal of knowledge in this area, have you ever worked for another cue maker, please do not mention any names if the answer is yes.

Thanks Craig
 
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manwon said:
Thanks for your thoughts Troy, it is very refreshing!! But, please answer this question, since you obviously have a great deal of knowledge in this area, have you ever worked for another cue maker, please do not mention any names if the answer is yes.

Thanks Craig
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No,

I have never worked for another cuemaker. A local cuemaker, here in Vancouver, is a good friend of mine and has been teaching me off and on since late 2001. He uses a pantograph and only makes V spliced points. I have machined some tooling for him in trade, but that is a close to working for him that I have come. I have my own Fixturing/Machine shop catering to the PCB industry. Cuemaking is just a hobby, but I am trying to learn everything I can.

I did have a thought about dedicated fixturing and machines.

For those who have watched the video of Ernie and have the attitude that CNC is somehow cheating or production. Where do dedicated machines like his automatic ring cutter fall into your views? It's not CNC but you turn it on press a button and whamo perfect rings everytime. Is this considered production or handmade? Or because he designed and made the tool himself is it OK?

My view is he is a living legend and CNC or not, Catalog cues or not, dedicated machines or not, his designs have been on the top of innovation for more than 40 years. CNC machines are just another tool he uses to execute his designs.

Troy
 
Troy Mckune said:
No,

I have never worked for another cuemaker. A local cuemaker, here in Vancouver, is a good friend of mine and has been teaching me off and on since late 2001. He uses a pantograph and only makes V spliced points. I have machined some tooling for him in trade, but that is a close to working for him that I have come. I have my own Fixturing/Machine shop catering to the PCB industry. Cuemaking is just a hobby, but I am trying to learn everything I can.

I did have a thought about dedicated fixturing and machines.

For those who have watched the video of Ernie and have the attitude that CNC is somehow cheating or production. Where do dedicated machines like his automatic ring cutter fall into your views? It's not CNC but you turn it on press a button and whamo perfect rings everytime. Is this considered production or handmade? Or because he designed and made the tool himself is it OK?

My view is he is a living legend and CNC or not, Catalog cues or not, dedicated machines or not, his designs have been on the top of innovation for more than 40 years. CNC machines are just another tool he uses to execute his designs.

Troy
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Thanks for the reply Troy, I appreceiate your time.

My view is he is a living legend and CNC or not, Catalog cues or not, dedicated machines or not, his designs have been on the top of innovation for more than 40 years. CNC machines are just another tool he uses to execute his designs.

I completely agree that he is a living legend and he has certainly paid his dues. But, even without any of this new equipment he would still be where he is today. In fact a true Master Cue Builder like Ernie doesn't need any of it to make master pieces like he has over the last 40 years. This is my point, Gentleman like Ernie should not be a dieing breed and their abilities should not be lost. In the end people will pay what pay for any item, however, how it is made will directly effect future value like anything else.

Take care.
 
Troy Mckune said:
No,

For those who have watched the video of Ernie and have the attitude that CNC is somehow cheating or production. Where do dedicated machines like his automatic ring cutter fall into your views? It's not CNC but you turn it on press a button and whamo perfect rings everytime. Is this considered production or handmade? Or because he designed and made the tool himself is it OK?


Troy
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Hi Troy.
How was that automated?
He turned it on, looked at the indicator for the ring's width, then cut it with a saw.
You can't use parting tool on silver rings.
 
tikkler said:
As a collector I think that if you are designing and personally building your own cues, and the outcome is an increduble work of art, your a master cuebuilder in my book. If you are letting someone do a few things like scrimshaw, engraving, whatever and are upfront to your customers, you are still a master. I am more interested in the integrity of the builder and the beauty of the finished product. Its great knowing that a lot of you guys are out there trying to dvelop your skills and become better craftsman, I tip my hat to you all.
But to me, if your buying half or all the cue in parts and telling everyone you did it........your a snake......Just my opinion
Steve
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What are your thoughts on a Woodworth?

Dwight
 
JoeyInCali said:
Hi Troy.
How was that automated?
He turned it on, looked at the indicator for the ring's width, then cut it with a saw.
You can't use parting tool on silver rings.
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Hey Joey,

I agree. Most of us out here with a lathe have a little more setup to cut rings but it is a relatively quick process. I was just trying to see where people draw the line, if any, between "HANDMADE" and "PRODUCTION".

Personally in my business I try to find the most efficient solutions to the manufacturing challenges I face. I define efficiency as the quickest most cost effective solution that repeatably maintains the quality standards I require (or something like that). I love when people post pictures in the cuemaking section of fixturing or tooling that provide a solution to common cuemaking process (like Tonkin's veneer cutting & point squaring fixture). Ernie has created many efficient solutions to the manufacturing challenges cuemakers face and we are all better off for him allowing us to view them.


Manwon,

I am not sure how to respond because I agree with what you are saying. I, like most would love to go learn from Ernie or any of the top cuemakers that did everything without CNC's.

I do think however that if you gave all cuemakers every piece of equipment they dream of having (CNC mill, CNC router, lathes, dedicated machines, etc.) only a small percentage would ever reach the level of Szamboti, Ginacue, Searing, etc.

Troy
 
Troy Mckune said:
Hey Joey,

I agree. Most of us out here with a lathe have a little more setup to cut rings but it is a relatively quick process. I was just trying to see where people draw the line, if any, between "HANDMADE" and "PRODUCTION".

Personally in my business I try to find the most efficient solutions to the manufacturing challenges I face. I define efficiency as the quickest most cost effective solution that repeatably maintains the quality standards I require (or something like that). I love when people post pictures in the cuemaking section of fixturing or tooling that provide a solution to common cuemaking process (like Tonkin's veneer cutting & point squaring fixture). Ernie has created many efficient solutions to the manufacturing challenges cuemakers face and we are all better off for him allowing us to view them.


Manwon,

I am not sure how to respond because I agree with what you are saying. I, like most would love to go learn from Ernie or any of the top cuemakers that did everything without CNC's.

I do think however that if you gave all cuemakers every piece of equipment they dream of having (CNC mill, CNC router, lathes, dedicated machines, etc.) only a small percentage would ever reach the level of Szamboti, Ginacue, Searing, etc.

Troy
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I do think however that if you gave all cuemakers every piece of equipment they dream of having (CNC mill, CNC router, lathes, dedicated machines, etc.) only a small percentage would ever reach the level of Szamboti, Ginacue, Searing, etc.

I totally agree, and my point has always been that that the prices charged by many cue makers today are out of line for exactly this reason. I have never had anything against making cues using any equipment that will make a better cue. However, with all the readily assessable equipment and materials in the long run I suspect we will have fewer Master Craftsmen and more Cue Builders / assemblers.

With all the new equipment people will not have to perfect their skills to encompass all phases of cue making and over all the industry will become stagnant. This is just my opinion but, everything is pointing in that direction, and the worst part is the fact the buyers do not understand enough about what they buying to ask the right questions.

Thanks for you information, I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
 
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