Thoughts on tip hardness and LD shafts

G

gtaylor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey guys,

I completely understand the physics of LD shafts but I am curious about tip hardness in relation to the physics. So far searching for a definitive answer has found little....

I see 2 different theories on this...

1.). Use the softest tip you can stand to further help with the deflection issues. However this is deferred to the feel question as far Asa dead tip on a dead cue. Also these softer and higher elastic tips will require a harder stroke speed to transfer more energy to the cue ball.

2.). Use the hardest tip you can find. The short version is just for the opposite of the above reasons :-). Lol. While the harder tip would transfer more energy it would also cause a little more deflection. Also a harder tip would make it more difficult to shoot stun or drag stroked over shorter distances.

The only source I have for this is kamui's website on their tip charts. They seem to like soft tips on stiff shafts and hard tips on LD shafts. Makes sense - but just curious if you flip flopped that what would occur?


Any thoughts???


thanks


Greg
 
where are you getting the information that tip hardness affects deflection?

IME, the hardness of a tip does not change the deflection in any appreciable way.
 
I am by no means an expert and I can only offer my opinion. Which tip to play with is a very subjective decision. I like the soft tips and play with a Moori soft. I've tried other soft tips and always come back to Moori. I get more "feel" when I play with a hard tip but have problems when the cue ball is on the rail. When I play with a hard tip I have to be very careful and shoot with the cue slightly down on the cue ball or else I'll miscue. I shoot with a 19.1 oz. cue with a 11.75 tip diameter because I feel that I can hit the cue ball exactly with geometric precision with that small tip. This is what I play with and what I feel very comfortable with. But this may not be the right combination for many others. You have to find what's right for you. Your stroke and style of play will dictate that combination. So it's very individual. Good luck with your quest.
 
Deflection is a function of the effective tip mass, not hardness. The difference in energy absorbed between a soft and hard tip is negligible compared to the force required to bend the shaft The same stroke in the same spot will produce virtually the same squirt.

On a different note, a softer tip will deform to the rough surface of the ball a little more than a harder tip. This will give you a little more static friction allowing you to hit a tiny bit more to the edge of the ball. You'll get a little bit more squirt with the same shaft and stroke, but you will also get just as much more spin.

See my avatar :)

Edit: Also, please observe the difference between swerve and squirt. Two different things that happen at different times with applying spin!!!
 
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I have been thinking about this over the past month or so.

The leather supporting the transfer of energy is (roughly) conical from the contact area on the CB to the tenon transfering the impact to the shaft.

This could argue that as tip diameter becomes smaller, you would like a slight increase in hardness. Keyword: slight.

The other way to look at it is that as the tip diameter becomes smaller, the cone supporting the transfer of energy remains the same, so no change in tip hardness is required.

I do not think there is a reasonable physical/mechanical argument that you would want the tip to become softer as the shaft diameter was reduced.

But back to your premis: "Use the softest tip you can stand to further help with the deflection issues"

The softness of the tip is INDEPENDENT fo the deflection properties of the tip/ferrule/shaft/cue combination. The weight of the tip might have a minor impact on the deflection characteristics, but the compressability of the tip does NOT.
 
gtaylor said:
Hey guys,

I completely understand the physics of LD shafts but I am curious about tip hardness in relation to the physics. So far searching for a definitive answer has found little....

I see 2 different theories on this...

1.). Use the softest tip you can stand to further help with the deflection issues. However this is deferred to the feel question as far Asa dead tip on a dead cue. Also these softer and higher elastic tips will require a harder stroke speed to transfer more energy to the cue ball.

2.). Use the hardest tip you can find. The short version is just for the opposite of the above reasons :-). Lol. While the harder tip would transfer more energy it would also cause a little more deflection. Also a harder tip would make it more difficult to shoot stun or drag stroked over shorter distances.

The only source I have for this is kamui's website on their tip charts. They seem to like soft tips on stiff shafts and hard tips on LD shafts. Makes sense - but just curious if you flip flopped that what would occur?


Any thoughts???


thanks


Greg
Click to expand...
FYI, lots of info and resources related to tip hardness can be found here:

A harder tip can increase squirt if it is much heavier than the tip it replaces. However, a harder tip will generally reduce squirt (because of the shorter tip contact time). For more info, see the resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Several thing have been left out of this conversation.

Softer tips are not always more elastic than hard tips. They may deform more but that is not elasticity. Elasticity is Coefficient of Restitution.... We'll call it bounce to keep it simple... It's the ratio of energy transfer... Leather tips usually run from mid 60s to mid 70s..... That means you are losing >25% of your energy upon impact...

A high bounce tip can cause deflection based on the radius of the tip. I play with phenolic which I have tested at 92% COR... I know I can change the deflection in my BK2 by changing my tip shape.

Of course this may be because of the change in contact patch size from the shape change... Leather doesn't alter much and stays at about 3mm... Phenolic creates a much smaller patch and you can effect the size of the patch with shaping....

Now back to best leather tip....

The difference between hard and soft tips is currently measured in hardness.. No one currently tests bounce... usually a hard tip tests higher in bounce than a soft tip but this is actually not always the case especially dealing with layered tips....

The Kamui Super soft actually tests higher than most medium and some hard tips... I think this is why Kamui instructs that these tips be installed full height to allow the tip to tower/deflect upon impact to help it get out of the way just like the way the LD shaft works....

If you stuck a gun to my head and made me play with leather the Kamui SS would be my tip of choice... Of course I'd have it cut off after about a month when the Bounce started fading from compression but man that would get expensive........
 
I use the same tip, works fine........

gtaylor said:
Hey guys,

I completely understand the physics of LD shafts but I am curious about tip hardness in relation to the physics. So far searching for a definitive answer has found little....

I see 2 different theories on this...

1.). Use the softest tip you can stand to further help with the deflection issues. However this is deferred to the feel question as far Asa dead tip on a dead cue. Also these softer and higher elastic tips will require a harder stroke speed to transfer more energy to the cue ball.

2.). Use the hardest tip you can find. The short version is just for the opposite of the above reasons :-). Lol. While the harder tip would transfer more energy it would also cause a little more deflection. Also a harder tip would make it more difficult to shoot stun or drag stroked over shorter distances.

The only source I have for this is kamui's website on their tip charts. They seem to like soft tips on stiff shafts and hard tips on LD shafts. Makes sense - but just curious if you flip flopped that what would occur?


Any thoughts???


thanks


Greg
Click to expand...

If you like a ss kamui on your maple shaft you'll want to use the ss kamui on the LD shaft.

If your used to getting that spin your not going to like a harder tip on the LD shaft no matter what anyone tells you.

I had a person put a harder tip on my LD shaft unbeknowenst to me and I hated it.

Whatever you like is what you need to continue to use no matter what shaft you have.

It just that simple.
 
nrhoades said:
On a different note, a softer tip will deform to the rough surface of the ball a little more than a harder tip./QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------
Minor question: What is rough about the surface of a good quality cue ball? Or is "rough" understood to mean the tip's momentary deforming roughly approximates the curvature of the cue ball?

Thanks for any clarification.

Arnaldo
Click to expand...
 
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