Threading tennons at Tournament.

I've waxed hundreds and hundreds of tenons, and have never had one come loose. I've taken some of them off, and even cracked ones don't come off easily. If you get decent threads, the glue is secondary anyhow. The dies really shine when you are doing repairs while people wait. It's possible to change out a ferrule really quickly, and still do an excellent job.
 
RocketQ said:
I thought I was the only one that cringed when I read that. Wax + epoxy = nostick teflon coated rattling ferrule. This is one of the main reasons I don't like the compression dies.
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When you wipe a thin, notice word "thin" coat of cue wax on tenon, when the threads are cut there is fresh bare wood everywhere except on the very top of each thread. That provide plenty of gluing surface. I have never had one come loose either that was threaded that way. I was very skeptical at first also. Just as I was skeptical about coring forearms. Both have now proven to hold up. If you don't trust the wax then spin your lathe in reverse and wipe the tenon off with laquer thinner and let dry a few minutes then glue on the ferrule. But I think it is a waste of time as the very top of the threadd that still has a very minute amount of wax on it never touches anything to glue to. The female threads are always deeper than the male in all v-thread applications.
 
mroberts75 said:
What is the purpose of the wax? Just curious.....


Martin
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wax stops the threader from tearing off the threads you cue made

i use chris' tenon threader. like he said not pretty but still functional. never had one come loose either
 
Quote : RHNcues]
Also, on another note, making the tenon only .280 and then making threads that are going to make the tenon even thinner in the minors certainly can't be as strong as a normal .312 ferrule.[Unquote]

I'm going to side with Mr. Neighbors on this issue of threaded tenons because he's right about the MINOR diameter of a threaded tenon. A threaded tenon is unnecessary and can even provide a weaker tenon by way of the minor diameter of the thread. Considering that the tap drill for a 5/16" ID tenon is 1/4", you are in effect reducing the strength of the tenon by at least 20%. One should also consider the phenomenon of 'tenon leverage'. This is the result of contacting the QB off center and putting a side load on the tenon. The tenon now acts as a lever and places a greater load on it's base. The longer the tenon, the longer the lever. Meucci's were notorious for breaking the tenon, due to this effect, because their tenon is 1 1/4" long. McDermott, whose tenon is 1 1/8" in length, realized this and countered by making their tenon 3/8" diameter. Yes, I know that Meucci's tenons are now 3/8" also but they now have an unusually high occuance of breaking the side-wall of the ferrule.

There is a method of securing the ferrule without compromising the tenon and that is to drill the ferrule to 5/16" and whether capped or uncapped, run a 5/16" tap to the bottom of (or thru) the hole. The tap is oversize to the hole by a few thousandths and will leave light threads on the ID of the ferrule thereby offering the epoxy grooves to lock into. I feel this to be a better method to under-cutting the tenon.

Super glue should never be used to install a ferrule as it is not designed to withstand impact. It works relatively well on tips because the leather of the tip provides cushion. Side load a ferrule that has been installed using CA and sooner or later, it will fail.

I've been known to make controversial statements on this forum and I don't shy away from them, particularly when I think that they are true. Intellectual discussion and even debate are healthy for this forum and particularly for the uniformed readers who have little or no knowledge of the subject being discussed. I think that they come away a more educated reader and with greater understanding of the mechanics of their cue.
 
Sheldon said:
I've waxed hundreds and hundreds of tenons, and have never had one come loose. I've taken some of them off, and even cracked ones don't come off easily. If you get decent threads, the glue is secondary anyhow. The dies really shine when you are doing repairs while people wait. It's possible to change out a ferrule really quickly, and still do an excellent job.
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Would you trust wax on the "A" joint, before you glue it?...JER
 
I'm going to side with Mr. Neighbors on this issue of threaded tenons because he's right about the MINOR diameter of a threaded tenon. A threaded tenon is unnecessary and can even provide a weaker tenon by way of the minor diameter of the thread. Considering that the tap drill for a 5/16" ID tenon is 1/4", you are in effect reducing the strength of the tenon by at least 20%. One should also consider the phenomenon of 'tenon leverage'. This is the result of contacting the QB off center and putting a side load on the tenon. The tenon now acts as a lever and places a greater load on it's base. The longer the tenon, the longer the lever. Meucci's were notorious for breaking the tenon, due to this effect, because their tenon is 1 1/4" long. McDermott, whose tenon is 1 1/8" in length, realized this and countered by making their tenon 3/8" diameter. Yes, I know that Meucci's tenons are now 3/8" also but they now have an unusually high occuance of breaking the side-wall of the ferrule.

There is a method of securing the ferrule without compromising the tenon and that is to drill the ferrule to 5/16" and whether capped or uncapped, run a 5/16" tap to the bottom of (or thru) the hole. The tap is oversize to the hole by a few thousandths and will leave light threads on the ID of the ferrule thereby offering the epoxy grooves to lock into. I feel this to be a better method to under-cutting the tenon.


Drilling ferrules thru at 5/16 might also weaken the ferrule itself. Some hard ferrules are designed to have a cap and thick wall.
Some threaded ferrules do have a 5/16 by 3/16 register/shoulder hole at the bottom. Use it.
I don't know about you but I see a lot more loose/cracked ferrules than broken threaded tenons.
How many Preds and Meuccis have you repaired over McDermott?
 
Hi Joey,
Actually, there are a lot of good cues that utilize a thru ferrule and they do have a slight advantage over a capped ferrule if all you're considering is wght. I offer both types on my cues.

You spoke of a '3/16" register at the bottom of the ferrule. That is to accommodate the small radius at the bottom of the tenon which adds strength to the tenon. One should be very careful not to disturb that radius on the tenon when replacing a ferrule.

Thinking on it, I can safely say that I've replaced more McD. ferrules than anything else, outside of bar cues. Oddly enough, it's not always because they're broken. A lot of them have been due to the ferrule having seperated from the shaft where the bottom of the ferrule meets the wood. These were threaded ferrules. I mean, you could see daylight under the ferrule. Ivorine 3 or even 4, does not get my recommendation as a ferrule replacement mtrl. Both, at times, have been loaded with contaminants and the surface tends to flake apart when cutting it for a turn-down.

Honestly, I'm not being biased here but replacement of Predator ferrules ranks at the bottom of the list of number of ferrules replaced by brand of cue. Even then it's mostly because the client changed their own tip, or had it replaced by someone, who hacked up the ferrule badly.
 
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Thinking on it, I can safely say that I've replaced more McD. ferrules than anything else, outside of bar cues. Oddly enough, it's not always because they're broken. A lot of them have been due to the ferrule having seperated from the shaft where the bottom of the ferrule meets the wood. These were threaded ferrules. I mean, you could see daylight under the ferrule. Ivorine 3 or even 4, does not get my recommendation as a ferrule replacement mtrl. Both, at times, have been loaded with contaminants and the surface tends to flake apart when cutting it for a turn-down.
McD only threads the top of the tenon though. Very little threads and they use a long working time glue instead of epoxy. Maybe that has a lot to do with it.
What ferrules do you recommend then?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Thinking on it, I can safely say that I've replaced more McD. ferrules than anything else, outside of bar cues. Oddly enough, it's not always because they're broken. A lot of them have been due to the ferrule having seperated from the shaft where the bottom of the ferrule meets the wood. These were threaded ferrules. I mean, you could see daylight under the ferrule. Ivorine 3 or even 4, does not get my recommendation as a ferrule replacement mtrl. Both, at times, have been loaded with contaminants and the surface tends to flake apart when cutting it for a turn-down.
McD only threads the top of the tenon though. Very little threads and they use a long working time glue instead of epoxy. Maybe that has a lot to do with it.
What ferrules do you recommend then?
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For years, McDermott used fibre ferrule. Fibre ferrules are indestructible but they do absorb moisture badly. As moisture is absorbed, the ferrule swells in diameter and shrinks in length. After awhile, you can feel the ferrule being larger than the shaft and the tip will only be glued to the tenon which will be slightly longer than the ferrule and of coarse the gap at the other end. If not corrected, the ferrule will finally come loose from the tenon.

Dick
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Would you trust wax on the "A" joint, before you glue it?...JER
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I fail to see how that relates to ferrules. Sorry, the question seems silly to me. Did you read what Cueman wrote on the subject?
 
rhncue said:
Also, on another note, making the tenon only .280 and then making threads that are going to make the tenon even thinner in the minors certainly can't be as strong as a normal .312 ferrule.
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The only time this will be an issue is if some hack repair person tears the tenon off. This argument simply doesn't stand up, because tenon failure (in the player's hands, not the repair person) is a non-issue 99.9 % of the time. If an argument along these lines were to be made, larger tenons are worse (failure-wise) because they lead to ferrules failing more often.
 
Sheldon said:
I fail to see how that relates to ferrules. Sorry, the question seems silly to me. Did you read what Cueman wrote on the subject?
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I read & reread ALL of the posts. Cuemaker after cuemaker anguishes over the thought of a glue failure at the "A" joint or the ferrule & we take every possible precaution to protect against a "buzz" warpage or any glue failure. Yet, I can't understand how you can rationalize the fact, that you use glue over a waxy surface at the ferrule. Probably everyone at sometime has looked at the instructions on a glue or paint container. One of the 1st things that it says, is that the surfaces should be free of water, oil, wax etc. I'm not triing to make light of this. I'm mearly puzzeled about something that I though was a basic in gluing. Wax & glue just don't seem to me to mix. Even a little...JER
 
I guess what Works for some doesn't for others, and that's fine, cause I'm just relaying my experiences here, and there is certainly more then one way to skin cat, but from Where I stand, I see no reason to change. That doesn't mean everyone should do what I or others do though. I say do what works best for the individual.

I can understand the thinking that the wax can cause problems. In fact I already mentioned I once thought that way too, because i have always been aware that wax and adhesives aren't normally a good combination, so I don't dispute that at all, but after experiencing it for Myself, I aggree with Sheldon on this one, and think Chris stated it much better then My lousy attempt. There is not much residue if any visable after I make the threads. I have had no failures from It, and believe me I have some customers that put them to the test. I'm not saying I won't ever see a failure, but no matter How You do them that would be a bold statement to make. I did change one out to a different material recently, and i had to heat it up to unscrew It. When I looked at the tenon it was smooth with glue as if It were sealed with it, so it stuck, and go figure, but there was less in the ferrule threads then the wood tenon. You could say that was because there was more heat directly at the ferrule, but still, it stuck to the tenon too, even under that kind of treatment which is much worse then normal conditions.

I also see more failures from the result of oversized tenons then probably anything else.

Fibre ferrules, I've owned My share of cues with them, They are tuff, granted, but I always ended up switching them out with a different material pretty soon into owning them, also see My share of house cues & other peoples cues with them, and I constantly have to reglue them or replace them. My opinion, It doesn't matter how You do them, they can all fail eventually, for the same reason, and it's all the movement that takes place. It may be one of the worse materials for that, but not the only one from what I've seen.:) Greg
 
> This may sound crazier than Rolaids,but I simply could NOT get the Atlas tenon threader to work for me with any kind of consistency,or at least not in it's original form. What I did was take the threads in the threader and simply opened them up with a tap,then used an H4 tap and opened it up further. It doesn't seem to tear the wood up nearly as bad,does a great job cleaning out old glue,and just makes it easier for me. I'm also not a big believer in the use of wax on or in a surface where glue is to be applied,but can also see where it can be removed effectively. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> This may sound crazier than Rolaids,but I simply could NOT get the Atlas tenon threader to work for me with any kind of consistency,or at least not in it's original form. What I did was take the threads in the threader and simply opened them up with a tap,then used an H4 tap and opened it up further. It doesn't seem to tear the wood up nearly as bad,does a great job cleaning out old glue,and just makes it easier for me. I'm also not a big believer in the use of wax on or in a surface where glue is to be applied,but can also see where it can be removed effectively. Tommy D.
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Personally, this sounds like your tenon prior to threading was still too large. The tapping of the die would have cleared out more space for the extra wood on the tenon.
 
wax not needed!!!!

I believe that waxing is just one step not needed. If you have the tenon at the right size, it works fine without the wax.
 
Tommy-D said:
> This may sound crazier than Rolaids,but I simply could NOT get the Atlas tenon threader to work for me with any kind of consistency,or at least not in it's original form. What I did was take the threads in the threader and simply opened them up with a tap,then used an H4 tap and opened it up further. It doesn't seem to tear the wood up nearly as bad,does a great job cleaning out old glue,and just makes it easier for me. I'm also not a big believer in the use of wax on or in a surface where glue is to be applied,but can also see where it can be removed effectively. Tommy D.
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They did have lots of problems with the first run of Tenon Dies, but they might have it corrected now. It did not matter what size the tenon would be, they would not work :)
 
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