Tight grain VS straight grain shafts???

[vicdotcom]

One more topic for you to comment on. It seems to me that older shafts for like my Rambow or even an old Palmer, the shafts are entirely a different color, the old ones are much darker, and more yellow. The shafts I see today on ALL cues are whiter, and "grainer" if you will.

I have an excellent pic if someone can help me resize so I can post.

Ken

The color of many shafts nowadays are brought about by bleaching the shafts. Another factor is a lot of the newer maple shafts come from younger trees. Back when those shafts came out, older maple trees and lumber was more more avaible. Today much of that has already been harvested and younger trees take their place. Younger wood is more pale.

Vic

 

[misterpoole]

The color of many shafts nowadays are brought about by bleaching the shafts. Another factor is a lot of the newer maple shafts come from younger trees. Back when those shafts came out, older maple trees and lumber was more more avaible. Today much of that has already been harvested and younger trees take their place. Younger wood is more pale.

Vic

I also heard that very white wood is vacuum dried instead of kiln dried.
vacuum drying is detrimental to shaft's performance characteristics aka 'hit'.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I also heard that very white wood is vacuum dried instead of kiln dried.
vacuum drying is detrimental to shaft's performance characteristics aka 'hit'.

Why would that be?
Vacuum drying slowly dries the wood. Would it affect the woods' tonal characteristics?

 

[misterpoole]

Why would that be?
Vacuum drying slowly dries the wood. Would it affect the woods' tonal characteristics?

The way it was described to me the vacuum drying can collapse the cells in the wood. That would affect the transfer of sound waves/tonal characteristics.

 

[JoeyInCali]

The way it was described to me the vacuum drying can collapse the cells in the wood. That would affect the transfer of sound waves/tonal characteristics.

Hmmmmm, me not believe it somehow.

 

[dave sutton]

Thanks for the information. It was very interesting and I will try to digest it.

Again, as I mentioned I am a good player but not a great one, but I do know what I like.

One more topic for you to comment on. It seems to me that older shafts for like my Rambow or even an old Palmer, the shafts are entirely a different color, the old ones are much darker, and more yellow. The shafts I see today on ALL cues are whiter, and "grainer" if you will.

I have an excellent pic if someone can help me resize so I can post.

Ken

well older wood exposed will change color but one major reason older cues are yellow is bc they used laquer finishes that yellow over time. most custom cuemakers today use an automotive clear coat. this never yellows. even some 2 part finishes that claim not to yeelow still do.

 

[jazznpool]

Ken, A good deal of maple processed today for use in pool cue shafts (and forearms too) is vacuum kiln dried. Assuming the wood is winter cut, maple dried in this way will tend to be bright white. As long as the maple has been properly dried and stress relieved in the kiln, this wood is wonderful for pool cue shafts (assuming it was top grade maple to begin with). One processor I know dries his maple in a conventional kiln. Because of his skill and knowledge, the whiteness of the wood is about 98% of what is achieved by vacuum kiln drying! I've also noticed that the conventionally dried maple blanks tend to yield a slightly greater number of more dense/ heavier shafts. Bright, clear hard maple is highly valuable and sought after for pool cue shaft blanks. To me brown maple is a sign that the wood was not properly processed...at least by today's standards. Years ago maple was only dried in a conventional kiln. There was much less concern for brightness or whiteness. I also think that cuemakers relied on suppliers that were not focused on the billiards industry. The supreme quality hard maple available today for cue shafts is the result of the few specialty maple processors who know what the billiards industry wants and have the knowledge and wherewithall to supply it. Virgin hard maple timber was long gone before we were born. The golden age of hard maple for pool cue shafts is right now.

I'll try to take some photos of tapered shaft dowels that are vacuum kiln dried and also conventionally kiln dried so you can compare them.

Martin

Thanks for the information. It was very interesting and I will try to digest it.

Again, as I mentioned I am a good player but not a great one, but I do know what I like.

One more topic for you to comment on. It seems to me that older shafts for like my Rambow or even an old Palmer, the shafts are entirely a different color, the old ones are much darker, and more yellow. The shafts I see today on ALL cues are whiter, and "grainer" if you will.

I have an excellent pic if someone can help me resize so I can post.

Ken

 

[jazznpool]

Very good point Dave...also woods from yesteryear were mostly (or exclusively) dried in a conventional kiln...with less concern for degree of whiteness.

Martin

well older wood exposed will change color but one major reason older cues are yellow is bc they used laquer finishes that yellow over time. most custom cuemakers today use an automotive clear coat. this never yellows. even some 2 part finishes that claim not to yeelow still do.

 

[dave sutton]

lol... good point yourself. ppl back in the day were so damn happy they werent shooting with a telephone poll

 

[guycrunch]

I have an excellent pic if someone can help me resize so I can post.

Ken

ken, send me the pics and i'll post them.

guy
guycrunch@aol.com

 

[jazznpool]

This is not true. I have very white conventionally kiln dried maple shaft blanks! High performance shafts of supreme quality come from both vacuum and conventional kiln dried hard maple. I've been able to cut and compare a large number of each. Poorly sawed and/or poorly dried maple (e.g., dried too fast, not stress relieved) is detrimental to a shaft's performance characteristics! BTW, I don't know it all but I do know a little.

Martin

I also heard that very white wood is vacuum dried instead of kiln dried.
vacuum drying is detrimental to shaft's performance characteristics aka 'hit'.

 

[manwon]

There's plenty of misinformation here, IMO. Remember, a shaftwood blank with ideal characteristics is only potentially a great pool cue shaft. It must be properly cut and tapered to reveal its best properties for use in a pool cue. The shaft must also be paired to an adequate or better butt. That is where a cue makers skill and knowledge comes in. I believe many of the better cuemakers sort their shaft stock and only use their better stock for their custom cues. The better stock will have some natural variation in weight. Shafts don't need to be 4.0 oz or over to be good shafts. That is simply not true. Someone might prefer heavy shafts or think they need to have them to perform well, but there are shafts that weigh less that are stellar pool cue shafts. The cuemakers supply of "good" or "top" shafts are often paired to a cue in an effort to achieve a certain weight/balance range.

There are only a handful of men or companies who are responsible for supplying the vast majority of hard maple that is used for pool cues worldwide. We enjoy magnificent maple shaftwood because of the knowledge and skill these men have in selecting veneer grade logs and processing the wood into shaft billets or dowels (no small feat). And, the better cuemakers will pay top dollar for the best wood available instead of trying to make $3 shaft blanks work out. This selectivity with woods is part of what a consumer should be paying for in a fine custom made pool cue.

Several grading factors have been mentioned. IMO, the least valuable is growth rings per inch. Although I would hesitate to recommend using a dowel with less than 7-9 growth rings for appearance purposes, I have not found that 20-30 GPI dowels yield shafts that are superlative to 12-15 GPI blanks. Relative straightness of grain, especially on 90% or more of the business end of a shaft is a must, IMO. For me, an ideal pool cue shaft has "good vibrations" as well as an absence distracting cosmetic flaws. YMMV.

Martin

Hello Martin, you made the following statement (Although I would hesitate to recommend using a dowel with less than 7-9 growth rings for appearance purposes, I have not found that 20-30 GPI dowels yield shafts that are superlative to 12-15 GPI blanks.), have you ever seen shaft wood with 45 to 65 GPI, and how do you think this will differ from lower GPI count?

Also Martin, you say that you would hesitate to use a shaft dowel with less that 7-9 GPI because of appearance. Please explain how growth rings affect the outward appearance of shaft wood?

 

[jazznpool]

Craig, you probably know that shaftwood with more than 30 GPI is extremely, extremely rare today. In the over 2000 pieces I've purchased in the last year, rarely do the ring counts get into the high 20's, low 30's. A lot of the time I only pay attention to GPI in passing. The majority of shaft blanks fall in the 10-15 GPI range with a scattered and thinning distribution above and below that range. My point is that I've found no relationship between high ring count and superior playing characteristics. In other words, the high ring count blanks are just as likely to be various degrees of great, good or poor as lower ring count blanks. A 5-6 GPI shaft blank is also uncommon. It would have about 3 growth rings near the ferrule. This might be distracting if the grain lines were real prounounced.

Because of what has become common misinformation, and their scarcity, high GPI shafts often command a premium price. I like them from that standpoint. However, the high GPI shaft does not automatically equal superior playing shaft. I'm glad to hear that you have had great success with cutoffs from antique cues, Craig. I'm flat out jealous that you so easily acquire them in your area The fine craftsmanship in many of the old Brunswick cues is simply amazing. I especially love the old veneered cues. I appreciate your contributions to the forum. Please do not read disrespect into my comments. The learning with cue woods and constructing cues is never ending--that's a good part of the fun of it. I am grateful to the cuemakers and woodsmen who've freely shared their knowledge.

Martin

 

[manwon]

Craig, you probably know that shaftwood with more than 30 GPI is extremely, extremely rare today. In the over 2000 pieces I've purchased in the last year, rarely do the ring counts get into the high 20's, low 30's. A lot of the time I only pay attention to GPI in passing. The majority of shaft blanks fall in the 10-15 GPI range with a scattered and thinning distribution above and below that range. My point is that I've found no relationship between high ring count and superior playing characteristics. In other words, the high ring count blanks are just as likely to be various degrees of great, good or poor as lower ring count blanks. A 5-6 GPI shaft blank is also uncommon. It would have about 3 growth rings near the ferrule. This might be distracting if the grain lines were real prounounced.

Because of what has become common misinformation, and their scarcity, high GPI shafts often command a premium price. I like them from that standpoint. However, the high GPI shaft does not automatically equal superior playing shaft. I'm glad to hear that you have had great success with cutoffs from antique cues, Craig. I'm flat out jealous that you so easily acquire them in your area The fine craftsmanship in many of the old Brunswick cues is simply amazing. I especially love the old veneered cues. I appreciate your contributions to the forum. Please do not read disrespect into my comments. The learning with cue woods and constructing cues is never ending--that's a good part of the fun of it. I am grateful to the cuemakers and woodsmen who've freely shared their knowledge.

Martin

Thanks for you reply, and have a great night Martin!!!!

 

[Slider]

The way it was described to me the vacuum drying can collapse the cells in the wood. That would affect the transfer of sound waves/tonal characteristics.

If anything, vacuum drying would expand the cells, since the ambient pressure within them would be trying very hard to escape.

Ken