Time Down On A Shot (Longer Post)

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kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A recent post about “quiet eyes” got me thinking about what is happening when someone is down on a shot. Anecdotally, it seems to me that I am more successful in executing when I spend less time down on a shot. Of course, this begs the question: What is long vs. short in the time down on a shot?

HYPOTHESIS:
My hypothesis is that there is a particular time down on a shot that helps “quiet eyes” and helps someone to be ideally successful in temporarily accessing the portions of their brains that help execution. If someone exceeds some effective range of time, there is an increased likelihood that the outcome of the shot will not be successful, as I do not think we can stay in this "altered state of consciousness" for too long.

Admittedly, the data I collected is limited (because it is not exciting to collect), but even this small amount of data has interesting trends, I think. I looked at 4 racks between Ko Pin Yi and Shane Van Boening.

The average time down on a SUCCESSFUL shot for Ko Pin Yi was 5.05 seconds
The average time down on a SUCCESSFUL shot for SVB was 4.77 seconds

The average time down on an UNSUCCESSDUL shot for Ko Pin Yi was 5 seconds, but he only had two of them. (whereas he had many successful shots where he was down on the shot less than 3 seconds).

The average time down on an UNSUCCESSFUL shot for SVB was 6.95 seconds, but he only had two of them

On a consistent basis, the time Ko Pin Yi stays down on a shot DECREASES as he progresses in the rack with the final three shots average a “time down” of 2.2 seconds

On a less consistent basis SVB's time between shots DECREASES as he progresses, however, on some level he displays this tendency too.

I think, maybe, part of what makes a pro, is an ability to trust the mental process that yields the best results. This process seems counter intuitive, as in our society we think if we concentrate more, work harder, i.e. stay down on a shot to "concentrate", that our outcomes will be better. In a way, I think pros sort of induce "dead stroke", or at least, help to induce "dead stroke" by regulating the time periods their brains will do certain types of work. When they are up, they think strategy. When they are down, they don't have time to think (5 seconds TOPS), only to execute.

I think I am going to try a more serious regulation of my time down on a shot and see what happens. I think the main way to do this is to realize if you have been down too long, and then get up, and go again.

I hope some people found this to be interesting and helpful.

kollegedave
 
kollegedave said:
A recent post about “quiet eyes” got me thinking about what is happening when someone is down on a shot. Anecdotally, it seems to me that I am more successful in executing when I spend less time down on a shot. Of course, this begs the question: What is long vs. short in the time down on a shot?

HYPOTHESIS:
My hypothesis is that there is a particular time down on a shot that helps “quiet eyes” and helps someone to be ideally successful in temporarily accessing the portions of their brains that help execution. If someone exceeds some effective range of time, there is an increased likelihood that the outcome of the shot will not be successful, as I do not think we can stay in this "altered state of consciousness" for too long.

Admittedly, the data I collected is limited (because it is not exciting to collect), but even this small amount of data has interesting trends, I think. I looked at 4 racks between Ko Pin Yi and Shane Van Boening.

The average time down on a SUCCESSFUL shot for Ko Pin Yi was 5.05 seconds
The average time down on a SUCCESSFUL shot for SVB was 4.77 seconds

The average time down on an UNSUCCESSDUL shot for Ko Pin Yi was 5 seconds, but he only had two of them. (whereas he had many successful shots where he was down on the shot less than 3 seconds).

The average time down on an UNSUCCESSFUL shot for SVB was 6.95 seconds, but he only had two of them

On a consistent basis, the time Ko Pin Yi stays down on a shot DECREASES as he progresses in the rack with the final three shots average a “time down” of 2.2 seconds

On a less consistent basis SVB's time between shots DECREASES as he progresses, however, on some level he displays this tendency too.

I think, maybe, part of what makes a pro, is an ability to trust the mental process that yields the best results. This process seems counter intuitive, as in our society we think if we concentrate more, work harder, i.e. stay down on a shot to "concentrate", that our outcomes will be better. In a way, I think pros sort of induce "dead stroke", or at least, help to induce "dead stroke" by regulating the time periods their brains will do certain types of work. When they are up, they think strategy. When they are down, they don't have time to think (5 seconds TOPS), only to execute.

I think I am going to try a more serious regulation of my time down on a shot and see what happens. I think the main way to do this is to realize if you have been down too long, and then get up, and go again.

I hope some people found this to be interesting and helpful.

kollegedave
Click to expand...

my 2 cents worth
the quiet eye articles i believe recommend about 2 seconds for the quiet eye phenomenon to occur
for me if i stay down toooo looong my conscious brain starts creeping in
and im likely to miss
if i stay down long enough for quiet eyes and short enough to let muscle memory do the work i miss less
 
I would guess they spend less time down as they progress through the rack because as the table opens up you do not need to be so precise in position play. I would also guess that the more difficult the shot the more time they spend down on the shot. It seems that to really measure this you would need to compare similar shots. I think an example would be asking you how long you spend down on a shot where OB is 1 foot from pocket and QB is 6" away from OB in a straight line.
 
Once your bridge hand hits the cloth we have an average of 10-12 seconds before mental paralysis (or second-guessing yourself) starts to set in. Is that enough time to line up, warm up, and shoot? Yes...as long as you have a practiced setup and delivery process. The quiet eye part of that 10-12 seconds is 2-4 seconds long.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
kollegedave said:
A recent post about “quiet eyes” got me thinking about what is happening when someone is down on a shot. Anecdotally, it seems to me that I am more successful in executing when I spend less time down on a shot. Of course, this begs the question: What is long vs. short in the time down on a shot?

HYPOTHESIS:
My hypothesis is that there is a particular time down on a shot that helps “quiet eyes” and helps someone to be ideally successful in temporarily accessing the portions of their brains that help execution. If someone exceeds some effective range of time, there is an increased likelihood that the outcome of the shot will not be successful, as I do not think we can stay in this "altered state of consciousness" for too long.

Admittedly, the data I collected is limited (because it is not exciting to collect), but even this small amount of data has interesting trends, I think. I looked at 4 racks between Ko Pin Yi and Shane Van Boening.

The average time down on a SUCCESSFUL shot for Ko Pin Yi was 5.05 seconds
The average time down on a SUCCESSFUL shot for SVB was 4.77 seconds

The average time down on an UNSUCCESSDUL shot for Ko Pin Yi was 5 seconds, but he only had two of them. (whereas he had many successful shots where he was down on the shot less than 3 seconds).

The average time down on an UNSUCCESSFUL shot for SVB was 6.95 seconds, but he only had two of them

On a consistent basis, the time Ko Pin Yi stays down on a shot DECREASES as he progresses in the rack with the final three shots average a “time down” of 2.2 seconds

On a less consistent basis SVB's time between shots DECREASES as he progresses, however, on some level he displays this tendency too.

I think, maybe, part of what makes a pro, is an ability to trust the mental process that yields the best results. This process seems counter intuitive, as in our society we think if we concentrate more, work harder, i.e. stay down on a shot to "concentrate", that our outcomes will be better. In a way, I think pros sort of induce "dead stroke", or at least, help to induce "dead stroke" by regulating the time periods their brains will do certain types of work. When they are up, they think strategy. When they are down, they don't have time to think (5 seconds TOPS), only to execute.

I think I am going to try a more serious regulation of my time down on a shot and see what happens. I think the main way to do this is to realize if you have been down too long, and then get up, and go again.

I hope some people found this to be interesting and helpful.

kollegedave
Click to expand...

Eyes Smizes... the single most important thing is to know exactly where you are
going to hit the OB before you get down into your shooting stance - this requires that
you know exactly what the CB will do as a result of the contact.

Time for the shot varies by individual, slo for joe may be qwik for rick, but each
individual does have his own best pace.

If you take longer because you are studying the shot while already in your stance...
it's time to change to golf...

Dale
 
bbb said:
my 2 cents worth
the quiet eye articles i believe recommend about 2 seconds for the quiet eye phenomenon to occur
for me if i stay down toooo looong my conscious brain starts creeping in
and im likely to miss
if i stay down long enough for quiet eyes and short enough to let muscle memory do the work i miss less
Click to expand...

Scott Lee said:
Once your bridge hand hits the cloth we have an average of 10-12 seconds before mental paralysis (or second-guessing yourself) starts to set in. Is that enough time to line up, warm up, and shoot? Yes...as long as you have a practiced setup and delivery process. The quiet eye part of that 10-12 seconds is 2-4 seconds long.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
thanks scott
so its best to pull the trigger by 10-12 seconds
 
I am in my stance for less then 10 seconds. I stand behind the shot for a bit before I take my stance though to choose my line. I notice if I spend too long down on the shot I end up missing but due to my second guessing, not being comfortable, and micro adjusting.
 
CPlayer said:
I am in my stance for less then 10 seconds. I stand behind the shot for a bit before I take my stance though to choose my line. I notice if I spend too long down on the shot I end up missing but due to my second guessing, not being comfortable, and micro adjusting.
Click to expand...

If you aspire to ever be a "B", repeat after me:

NEVER adjust when you're down - not even micro.

Dale
 
Scott Lee said:
Once your bridge hand hits the cloth we have an average of 10-12 seconds before mental paralysis (or second-guessing yourself) starts to set in. Is that enough time to line up, warm up, and shoot? Yes...as long as you have a practiced setup and delivery process. The quiet eye part of that 10-12 seconds is 2-4 seconds long.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
Scott has good advice here.

When I started shooting pool, common advice from top level players (that I was fortunate to be around) was "If you think long, you think wrong." They would also say to think before you get down into your shot. So, I believe that they were talking about the time that you are down on the shot (you're delivery). Not actually thinking about how to handle a shot.

It is rare to see a top level players stay down on a shot for over 10 seconds. And if they do, it usually spells disaster. Of course, what is good for the top level players, is not always good for us mere mortals. But in this case 10 seconds at the most sounds good for my game. Some might be a shade different, but not much.

If I understand correctly, Quiet Eyes refers to the time of your last intense focus on the contact point as you stroke, swing, pull the trigger, etc. For me, if I miss but afterwards can't visualize that aiming point on the object ball, then I know that I shot too quickly. And this is most often the case with my misses. I just fail to focus on one picture for my brain to analyze.

Daren Johnson
 
If I remember correctly the quiet eyes theory has a lot to do with your brains ability to understand the information your eyes are transmitting to your brain. If your eyes move too rapidly back and forth from the cue ball to the object ball the brain becomes confused as to what your asking it to accomplish. Scott Lee & Randy G go over this in lessons with students.
 
pdcue said:
Eyes Smizes... the single most important thing is to know exactly where you are
going to hit the OB before you get down into your shooting stance - this requires that
you know exactly what the CB will do as a result of the contact.

Time for the shot varies by individual, slo for joe may be qwik for rick, but each
individual does have his own best pace.

If you take longer because you are studying the shot while already in your stance...
it's time to change to golf...

Dale
Click to expand...


This is it. ^

I also believe that the more you know, the more automatic and consistent your time on the shot becomes.

Lou Figueroa
 
pdcue said:
Eyes Smizes... the single most important thing is to know exactly where you are
going to hit the OB before you get down into your shooting stance - this requires that
you know exactly what the CB will do as a result of the contact.

Time for the shot varies by individual, slo for joe may be qwik for rick, but each
individual does have his own best pace.

If you take longer because you are studying the shot while already in your stance...
it's time to change to golf...

Dale
Click to expand...

I'm about a 10 handicap in Golf, and I've found there's an optimal time you should stand over the golf ball before the same thing happens, especially when on the putting green.

It's all about smooth, comfortable pre-shot-routine and getting into a good shooting rhythm... In golf and pool.
 
pdcue said:
If you aspire to ever be a "B", repeat after me:

NEVER adjust when you're down - not even micro.

Dale
Click to expand...

That is one of my personal pet peeves. And I hammer my lower players about it all the time. If your down and feel the need to adjust stand up and back and approach he shot again.

One trick a local BCA master had taught me a couple years ago. In practice if your brain and eyes are not communicating with each other. Go through your preshot get down on the shot and close yours eyes and pull the trigger. I was practicing spot t spot shots one day and was missing 8 out of 10. He showed me this and I made the next 6 in a row with m eyes closed. It felt like the craziest thing but worked
 
The longer I stay down on a shot the higher my percentage chance of making it gets. Obviously you can't stay down too long, but to say that it's 10-12 seconds max for every player, is just flat out wrong. I get in the zone while I am down, my confidence grows every second until I am sure that I am going to make the shot.

Changing shot plans while you are down aiming is obviously a bad idea, we can all agree on that.

YMMV
 
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