Time to rethink jump cues again?

[Black-Balled]

But you must admit that there are situations where a player has the option of kicking or jumping, with the jump being the option more likely to be of greater success (ie, a ball in the middle of table that can be shot into the pocket via jump, vs. kicking at same ball, which is highly unlikely to result in its being pocketed)?

Don't bother with 'if he knew how to kick well', coz I will play anyone on the planet a set of I jump/you kick, if I get to place the balls.

The jump is sometimes the correct shot.

I don't know who you're watching, but at a high level you're not gonna see guys miss a hit very often. And the guys who are really good at kicking are favorite to re-hook you from a lot of positions. Running out on new cloth and big pockets is a formality in professional tournament play for the most part. A safety battle where 2 guys are kicking each other safe back and forth, really fighting for the rack, is where the difference is made. And I personally don't like to see it when somebody plays a skillful and precise kick safe, one that came from years of knowledge and experience with kicking, and then a guy comes to the table with a jump cue and plays a shot that requires literally 5 minutes of lifetime training. To me, that's the boring part.

 

[highkarate]

But you must admit that there are situations where a player has the option of kicking or jumping, with the jump being the option more likely to be of greater success (ie, a ball in the middle of table that can be shot into the pocket via jump, vs. kicking at same ball, which is highly unlikely to result in its being pocketed)?

Don't bother with 'if he knew how to kick well', coz I will play anyone on the planet a set of I jump/you kick, if I get to place the balls.

The jump is sometimes the correct shot.

Oh totally. It's very often the right shot, because jumping is much easier and more predictable than kicking in general. If you were allowed to shoot object balls straight in with your cue instead of using the cue ball to do it, I would probably choose to do that a lot too. A bit of hyperbole but my point is, yes you're correct, jumping is an important tool under these rules, but I don't think it should be allowed. Or at least not jump cues.

 

[briankenobi]

So if we want to ban jump cues because it makes it easier, why not ban simonis cloth and nice pool balls and go back to nap cloth and clay balls because simonis and aramith/cyclops balls make it to easy.

I can understand where people are coming from but people have to understand that it isn't "back in the day" anymore. Gotta change with the times like other sports do, and that is our problem, we don't want to change with the times.

 

[highkarate]

So if we want to ban jump cues because it makes it easier, why not ban simonis cloth and nice pool balls and go back to nap cloth and clay balls because simonis and aramith/cyclops balls make it to easy.

I can understand where people are coming from but people have to understand that it isn't "back in the day" anymore. Gotta change with the times like other sports do, and that is our problem, we don't want to change with the times.

I'm 32 and I've never played pool in a time before jump cues existed. For me it has nothing to do with resisting change. IMO jump cues are just a silly and gimmicky work-around to avoid having to put in the amount of work it takes to be able to compete with a reyes caliber player in a safety battle. And I get ripped off as a spectator because of it

 

[briankenobi]

And I get ripped off as a spectator because of it

You are in the minority when it comes to mainstream pool fans and that is the crowd you need to cater too.

 

[evergruven]

So if we want to ban jump cues because it makes it easier, why not ban simonis cloth and nice pool balls and go back to nap cloth and clay balls because simonis and aramith/cyclops balls make it to easy.

I can understand where people are coming from but people have to understand that it isn't "back in the day" anymore. Gotta change with the times like other sports do, and that is our problem, we don't want to change with the times.

not the same thing tho, is it?
balls and cloth are fundamental to pool, but jump cues?
not sure it's a "back in the day" argument either..

sure, let a guy jump
but what about just losing phenolic tips?
I'm admittedly not a jumper, I like to kick it,
so I don't know.

brian, as a jumper/trick shot artist,
would just using a harder tip instead of a phenolic tip affect your shooting very much?

jumping was a natural progression of the game, masse etc.
but phenolic tips are just all round ugly.
and potentially damaging to the equipment

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

I don't know who you're watching, but at a high level you're not gonna see guys miss a hit very often. And the guys who are really good at kicking are favorite to re-hook you from a lot of positions. Running out on new cloth and big pockets is a formality in professional tournament play for the most part. A safety battle where 2 guys are kicking each other safe back and forth, really fighting for the rack, is where the difference is made. And I personally don't like to see it when somebody plays a skillful and precise kick safe, one that came from years of knowledge and experience with kicking, and then a guy comes to the table with a jump cue and plays a shot that requires literally 5 minutes of lifetime training. To me, that's the boring part.

Been watching the World 10 Ball? There have been plenty of completely missed hits by top pros.

 

[highkarate]

You are in the minority when it comes to mainstream pool fans and that is the crowd you need to cater too.

I don't agree with this assertion. Who is the most popular, fan-favorite pool player of all time? What is that player most renowned for? What is the most-viewed or most famous pool shot of all-time? People love to see great kick shots, and jump cues just mean we get less of them

 

[DynoDan]

How about banning break cues while your at it as well. So the one playing cue is all you are allowed to play with for both the break the play , the jump, and Masse shots.

I agree. The great players of history only needed one. The compromises in cue specs. were likely dictated by the strengths of an individual player’s game.

 

[highkarate]

Been watching the World 10 Ball? There have been plenty of completely missed hits by top pros.

How many wiffs out of how many total kicks? Like 5 out of 100 maybe on the stream? Anyway, kicking is supposed to be hard that's why it's cool, but people aren't just getting ball-in-hand a majority of the time like this guy was claiming. You know that

 

[Ghosst]

I find it annoying to play a good safe and have someone be able to just hop their way out of it. Then again, I should have played a better safe. For me, I normally (9/10) play a kick before a jump.

That said, assume jump cues are now banned from all events. What happens to those cues and how is it the player's fault they are no longer allowed to use them? Are the rule-makers going to reimburse people for the lost equipment?

I think we're stuck with the stubby cues no matter the outcome of this thread.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Bring back two shot push out....

 

[Johnny Rosato]

The opportunities to use the word are not very ubiquitous.

If it does come up in general conversation though, I bet he would feel quite chirky. :thumbup:

Well now there's anothern!

 

[logical]

How about we just ban jumping? I'd be all for that.

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[logical]

How about banning break cues while your at it as well. So the one playing cue is all you are allowed to play with for both the break the play , the jump, and Masse shots.

I get it but that's really not the same thing. I think a break cue is more about having a durable cue that allows you to not beat the tar out of your player. That's the only real reason I own one for home. At a bar I just break with s house cue. I don't really think any break cue offers a significant advantage in how hard you can bust the rack...despite how they are sometimes marketed. A jump cue is significantly different from your player.

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[Black-Balled]

I get it but that's really not the same thing. I think a break cue is more about having a durable cue that allows you to not beat the tar out of your player. That's the only real reason I own one for home. At a bar I just break with s house cue. I don't really think any break cue offers a significant advantage in how hard you can bust the rack...despite how they are sometimes marketed. A jump cue is significantly different from your player.

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:withstupid:
That's logical.

 

[briankenobi]

not the same thing tho, is it?
balls and cloth are fundamental to pool, but jump cues?
not sure it's a "back in the day" argument either..

sure, let a guy jump
but what about just losing phenolic tips?
I'm admittedly not a jumper, I like to kick it,
so I don't know.

brian, as a jumper/trick shot artist,
would just using a harder tip instead of a phenolic tip affect your shooting very much?

jumping was a natural progression of the game, masse etc.
but phenolic tips are just all round ugly.
and potentially damaging to the equipment

The reason why i brought up the comparison of previous equipment to todays equipment was the argument that jump cues make jumping easier. They do. But if the argument is that jump cues make jumping too easy, then why do people not have the same viewpoint with everything else. I think we all can agree that playing on simonis and playing with aramith balls makes playing the game easier. Whether something is fundamental to the game or not is irrelevant to my point. I am again coming at it from the argument that jump cues make it too easy, therefore we shouldn't have them and people need to jump like the old days with a full length cue. Did I answer that ok cause I can think kinda out there sometimes.

As far as tips go i don't think people jump enough to damage a cue ball. You may go weeks before you need to jump. Now changing break cues away from phenolic I think would make more sense. The main jump cue I use now has a hybrid tip that is part phenolic, similar to a samsara. The cue I use for one hand jumps is a straight phenolic tip. As far as using just a hard tip vs not using a phenolic, I think that may favor those with better jump fundamentals and better strokes.

 

[briankenobi]

I don't agree with this assertion. Who is the most popular, fan-favorite pool player of all time? What is that player most renowned for? What is the most-viewed or most famous pool shot of all-time? People love to see great kick shots, and jump cues just mean we get less of them

Who is the most popular, fan favorite pool player of all time? Depends on you era but I will follow your train of thought. Efren Reyes

What is that player most renowned for? Creative shots, whether kicks or off the wall stroke shots to get shape.

what is the most viewed or most famoust pool shot of all time? I know what you want it to be but it isn't the Z bank. Arguably the most famous pool shot of all time is "The boot shot" by Mike Massey, which by the way is a jump shot. The next most viewed shot would probably be the "rail jump" shot by that Canadian pool player whose name escapes me where he hops off the rail, makes a good hit, and makes a ball. And you could even say Steve Mizerak's "Just showing off shot" may be the most viewed since it was on that beer commerical that was on network TV.

People love to see great shots period, not just kick shots. Something like the Z bank is very rare. Making a jump shot happens more often and I would even go as far to say that jumping a ball half table, making a ball, and the drawing the ball half table ala Jayson Shaw is far more difficult that kicking, which is basically math and then a normal pool stroke. I am not saying kicking is outdated or anything. I love to watch a good kick safe game as the next person, but I am a diehard pool fan. When i said mainstream pool fan, I mean the league player who might catch pool on a stream sometime or someone who sees a friend share a pool stream and isn't a die hard pool fan. To those people, who outnumber us die hards by a lot, the jump shot that makes a ball and gets shape is way more entertaining and memorable than the 2 rail kick safe they saw. Checkers sells more than Chess.

 

[sjm]

When i said mainstream pool fan, I mean the league player who might catch pool on a stream sometime or someone who sees a friend share a pool stream and isn't a die hard pool fan. To those people, who outnumber us die hards by a lot, the jump shot that makes a ball and gets shape is way more entertaining and memorable than the 2 rail kick safe they saw. Checkers sells more than Chess.

Yes, but pro pool isn't concerned in the least with this type of pool player. That's why they are more than happy to play a version of ten ball in the WPA World Championships that this kind of player, and also Jeremy Jones, the game's best commentator, has never seen. Not counting caroms or combos on the ten as wins reminds this type of fan that you are not playing the game of pool he/she knows or cares about, widening the already enormous disconnect between the pro and amateur ranks.

Rest assured, there's little evidence that the rules are influenced AT ALL by what the casual player wants to see.

 

[DynoDan]

I get it but that's really not the same thing. I think a break cue is more about having a durable cue that allows you to not beat the tar out of your player. That's the only real reason I own one for home. At a bar I just break with s house cue. I don't really think any break cue offers a significant advantage in how hard you can bust the rack...despite how they are sometimes marketed. A jump cue is significantly different from your player.

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If the player was restricted to using only the one cue he starts with, he would have to calculate compromises, and make decisions re: what game he’s playing, how valuable/delicate the cue, whether the chosen tip should enhance his break or the english he could apply, etc. If he’s especially attached to a vintage collector’s item, maybe he would be more likely to investigate/develop a ‘soft break’ strategy (?). If he has great speed control and an especially accurate centerball stroke, & talented at hopping over the edge of obstructing balls, he might then select a harder tip (?). Not everyone carries more than one cue, so those who play ALL the games would need to do some thinking.

P.S. On a different note, some enthusiasts worry about the game’s popularity, and how to appeal to the general public, always thinking up new gimmicks. Maybe the most influential ‘gimmick’ might well be a return to classical traditions, thus reviving a sense of ‘history’ that has faded from memory? After all, ‘retro’ is the ‘IN’ thing nowadays.