Timing in pool

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lotta gobbledegook here. I like to keep it simple. The dwell time between tip and cueball is 1/1000 of a second...or a quarter of an eye blink! You cannot signifcantly increase (or decrease) that dwell time, regardless of how you try (an increase from 1/1000th to 2/1000's because of a possibly softer tip, while appearing to be "statistically significant" is not so when it comes to real time on the table). A good instructor (one who uses video analysis) can help a student develop their own personal timing and rhythm. The are not imaginary ; they are definitely individual (although many players will utilize the same kind of timing and rhythm), and can be developed and fine-tuned, in order to strengthen your setup and delivery process! Here's the ultimate truth...everybody backswings too fast, and everybody shoots too hard. :grin:

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Barry Stark posted a video on timing. He used a 35000 fps camera to show that timing exists.

https://youtu.be/zH2PHaGl8Ik

Barry defines it as maintaining tip to surface contact longer at impact. Many pros describe it as more of a push. My sense of timing with soft draw fits that description. On certain shots with follow I use a similar stroke which has a feel of grabbing or holding contact. Ronnie O’Sullivan and Stephen Lee call the feel “bite on the ball”. One of the ways to maintain longer contact is through a downward angled stroke.

To those out there that think you can’t feel a 200 microsecond difference in contact time, Stark’s research proves it. The shooter was asked to tell when he felt the longer contact. When compared to shots where it was missing they found that extended contact on film. Scientists have discovered that the fingertips on a human hand can differentiate thickness changes of one molecule. The tips have pressure and shape sensing abilities. Vibratory feedback distinguishes between the moment of initial contact and recognizes a longer gripping time on the surface.

In Ronnie O’Sullivan’s recent WSC win, he talked several times about the timing of his stroke. He took extra practice time pre-session to work on finding the penetrating feel of the stroke through the ball, timing.

Ronnie and Stephen both speak about maintaining the same pace on most stroke. They both speak about a timed squeeze through the ball and that height of contact and the timing of the squeeze are what give them cue ball pace control on most shots. This is a different level of timing. Squeezing can slow the cue incrementally. Timed right the shooter now knows subconsciously when to push through fully to compensate for the retarding of power. Longer contact actually translates to more actual contact follow through. That means more rotational force on off center contacts. It also lessens deflection. The driving force of the extended contact keeps it on line longer. It’s like the timed spin of pitchers, tennis players and bowlers.

On a normal contact of tip to ball, the tip decelerates from meeting resistance. Conversely, a cue executing a push type of action, drives the tip and ball forward, without a rebound effect.

To get a sense of the feel shoot over a ball. Put the cue ball a full ball away from the intervening ball. Feel the resistance of the table due to the downward angle of the cue. That is extended contact. Increase the angle slightly and hit off center to get a swerve effect. The longer contact swerves more than the lower resistance of a horizontal contact with the same off center contact point and pace.
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The JV...It stands for Set, Pause, Finish...the three stops in our swing, that every player has, whether they think so...or not! LOL

It's also the predominant way of players to measure, develop, and self train their stroke process into a bullet proof delivery system. BTW, SPF has been around for more than 3 decades, and mentioned here thousands of times...so if you never heard of it (like a few others claim) you just weren't paying attention.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

ok first off let me say that I don't know what SPF stands for....lol.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Barry defines it as maintaining tip to surface contact longer at impact. ...
That doesn't happen to any significant extent. And further, if longer contact were beneficial, even longer contact could be achieved by a somewhat softer tip.

I think Barry Stark has many excellent videos. In this particular one, he has wandered off into the wilderness.

A simple analysis shows that longer contact can be detrimental to spin shots.
 

Kdogster

Registered
To jab or not to jab

Thanks imac007. That’s a fun video to watch from Mr. Stark no matter whether you agree with him or not. The music that went with the slow motion video was oddly cool. And I always get a good chuckle from the Brits word for draw, both soft and power. If only they had done a snooker scene in Austin Powers movie.:grin-square:

I don’t know if this is a dwell time thingy, but it’s very easy to do a soft jab stroke with extreme English and see a whole lot more spin on the cue ball compared to a less jabby, smoother stroke, equally soft. Try it out by hitting the cue ball at a rail and see the difference in spin. For me, it’s a huge difference. In fact, I notice with more jab, I can use less English and get the effect I want, which makes it far easier to account for deflection.

Call me crazy, but that’s my story.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lotta gobbledegook here. I like to keep it simple. The dwell time between tip and cueball is 1/1000 of a second...or a quarter of an eye blink! You cannot signifcantly increase (or decrease) that dwell time, regardless of how you try (an increase from 1/1000th to 2/1000's because of a possibly softer tip, while appearing to be "statistically significant" is not so when it comes to real time on the table). A good instructor (one who uses video analysis) can help a student develop their own personal timing and rhythm. The are not imaginary ; they are definitely individual (although many players will utilize the same kind of timing and rhythm), and can be developed and fine-tuned, in order to strengthen your setup and delivery process! Here's the ultimate truth...everybody backswings too fast, and everybody shoots too hard. :grin:

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

It’s obvious you didn’t watch the video or simply find it hard to revise your belief.

Reminds me of the fellow who believed he was walking dead, a corpse, to the dismay of his friends. Finally his wife got sick of it and asked him “do corpses bleed?” He laughed and said of course not, what foolishness. She prompted reached over and stuck a fork in his arm, blood gushed as she pulled it out as he looked in astonishment and said “I’ll be damned corpses do bleed “

I prefer evidence based research, 35000 frames per second doesn’t lie. The top echelon of pros, believe differently than you.

Of course then, the agriculture researcher who studied grasshoppers is also a lesson. After pulling of legs one at a time and telling the grasshopper to jump. He got a few data points before the hopper failed to hop.

His conclusion was that grasshoppers without legs are deaf.

Then we find out that grasshoppers have their ears in their knees....

It’s your life believe what you want.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
No, my drill yesterday had me doing a half tip of high with about 2 tips of side English. If the only thing I change is smooth vs jab stroke, I get dramatic differences.
Are the shots at different speeds?
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is the only known video of Frank Tullos who recently passed away. He had a unique kind of warm up strokes
and stroke delivery and a extremely consistent delivery with excellent cue ball control. One of the local One Pocket monsters.
I got to play with Frank and watch his setup and stroke routine over the years. Great player at any game. Watch it for his timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnBQ2CeBh9c

Frank was a helluva player when he was a young man. We made one significant score together. He remained a very good player all his life but was smart enough to see that owning pool halls was a much better proposition than being a pool hustler or a tournament player. He owned several very successful rooms during his lifetime!
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That said, the "top echelon" of Professional Instructors believe the exact same thing as me. People have been trying to defeat pool physics for many years. Nobody has succeeded yet! :rolleyes: As you said...believe whatever you like!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

The top echelon of pros, believe differently than you.

.
 

Kdogster

Registered
Are the shots at different speeds?

No, the speed should be close to same.

Here’s the shot (see attached). I used less top English than suggested, maybe half a tip. Without a jab stroke, I had to use extreme side English, and even then I couldn't reliably get the cue ball in the inner box. But with jab I can get it to work with about 1.5 tips and comfortably in the inner box. The problem is the need to hit softly and still get enough inside English. There's a technique to it, and maybe describing it as a jab is not accurate, but that's how I think of it.

I thought it was interesting that Tyler Styler talks about the ability to spin the ball at slower speeds is a big thing to learn. It’s in this podcast video... maybe 20 minutes in. It may be a technique he is referring to similar to what I’m describing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojCW_-ausrc
 

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336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
One of the best explanations of proper stroke as it applies to all strokes is this one by Jeanette Lee.

She describes when to start "the push" as its part of the stroke plan. That part of the video starts at around 2:15

This is consistent with slow backswing and natural pause not necessarily exaggerated pause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL_DvTmCJfM

The SPF stroke is very teachable but "its not for everyone" however all strokes need to contain proper acceleration to be straight.
 
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Kdogster

Registered
One of the best explanations of proper stroke as it applies to all strokes is this one by Jeanette Lee.

She describes when to start "the push" as its part of the stroke plan. That part of the video starts at around 2:15

This is consistent with slow backswing and natural pause not necessarily exaggerated pause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL_DvTmCJfM

That's a great video and solid explanation! It makes a good complement to the Mark Wilson SPF stuff.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
That's a great video and solid explanation! It makes a good complement to the Mark Wilson SPF stuff.

I thought so too. I added some to my post while you were posting, sorry.

I studied this part of the game for several months along with Speed Control and proper "push" isn't talked about much but this one defines it and
gives that part of the stroke a defined place for all strokes.
 

Kdogster

Registered
I thought so too. I added some to my post while you were posting, sorry.

I studied this part of the game for several months along with Speed Control and proper "push" isn't talked about much but this one defines it and
gives that part of the stroke a defined place for all strokes.

Yep, I think the term "push" is where the technique lies. I believe I follow all the proper stroke techniques, but there's some subtle ways of how to push differently. Perhaps, one should push the same, so maybe I need to unlearn stuff.

In the Tyler video, he talks about how the better players can move the cue ball so much easier with softer strokes, because they can achieve lots of spin. He describes it as making the pockets bigger, since softer shots go in easier than harder ones. There's some technique in the push to make this work imho.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
Yep, I think the term "push" is where the technique lies. I believe I follow all the proper stroke techniques, but there's some subtle ways of how to push differently. Perhaps, one should push the same, so maybe I need to unlearn stuff.

In the Tyler video, he talks about how the better players can move the cue ball so much easier with softer strokes, because they can achieve lots of spin. He describes it as making the pockets bigger, since softer shots go in easier than harder ones. There's some technique in the push to make this work imho.

I there is a lot of good to be gotten out of learning cue ball control from the bottom up where speed control is concerned and the proper location of "the push" /expression of the stroke points to that but should not include "steering."

I was coached on hard shot playing for (funsies)by Frank Tullos once and it was a full table draw shot that had to hit a rail and I was a little intimidated by it because it was difficult and there had to be tons of spin on the ball. I stroked slow and executed perfectly and missed the exact spot I was told to leave the ball by about an inch. Frank said you hit that really slow but look at where you ended up. How are you going to beat that? So I'd say you are right. Quality over Quantity and Purity over Force. A quality big stroke doesn't happen until there have been a lot of quality short strokes.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
She describes when to start "the push" as its part of the stroke plan. That part of the video starts at around 2:15
"The push" she describes is simply where you stop letting gravity move the cue and start involving your arm. Nothing that defines "push" differently from a normal stroke.

pj
chgo
 
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