Hah, just read this! I think you could still do it, but the graph would have a hiccup upon contact (no acceleration), then deceleration for small time, and then increasing acceleration to reach an even higher speed peak.
Timing in pool
- Thread starter Kdogster
- Start date
The first such graph I made myself in 1999 by using a high speed camera and a stick with a ruler taped to it (more or less). A similar study is on Dr. Dave's site along with graphs for three players and video.
It turns out that some good players hit prior to peak speed, such as Dave Gross. That would move the tip contact point back to maybe 80% of peak speed, and the "hand rebound" peak is probably higher.
On the other hand, I don't think any good players hit after peak speed during deceleration. That's typically a fault of beginners who don't understand why they can't get any spin on draw shots, for example.
How do you overcome the flexing of the grip hand's skin? Even a very tight grip can't stop that within the 1-2 thousandths of a second contact.
pj
chgo
Yup. As I pointed out in some other thread, the force between the tip and the ball is in the hundreds of pounds range. Most people can't apply 100 pounds of force with their bare hand (palm and fingers) in less than a millisecond.
I only meant intending to hit the CB with more speed, but you hit too early. You’re probably right that only Chuck Norris could make the graph have an increasing only speed curve slope even after impact.
Wow, you worked for that information! Yes, I’m beginning to think timing is really an incorrect label and it’s really about what speed to hit and tip placement. Most likely, the timing part is a given with a few exceptions among good players.
Many players think the stroke should accelerate right up to the instant of contact (accelerating "through the ball"), which would make speed at contact highly variable. Fortunately, better timing is built into a pendulum stroke - its speed naturally peaks and "coasts" momentarily at the bottom of the swing where you strike the CB, giving a margin of speed error.
pj
chgo
Well said regarding pendulum stroke. On a slight tangent, would you agree the reason for a wrist snap action is just to get extra speed on top of a smoothly accelerating stroke and reduce the extra body movement and longer backswing required if no wrist snap is used? If I watch Alex Pagulayan, he uses a lot of wrist action even on most shots, and I wonder if that’s the reason. It makes sense to use wrist snap on break shots for this reason, but I find it interesting how some use it on nearly all shots.
I don't think wrist motion really adds much speed. A little wrist motion (not really a snap) feels natural to me, but I think of it more as fine tuning for speed control.
pj
chgo
Like the graph. Should be in a museum.
[EDIT] should read <I like the graph. It should be in a museum.> I have no scientific data indicating PJ belongs in a museum.
For arguments sake: What if you placed the cue tip a hair away from the ball and just pushed forward?
[EDIT] should read <I like the graph. It should be in a museum.> I have no scientific data indicating PJ belongs in a museum.
For arguments sake: What if you placed the cue tip a hair away from the ball and just pushed forward?
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That would be a foul.
Phair enough. what if the idea is to produce a dipherent graff?
Timing, rhythm, tempo
I think this hits the nail on the head - "when all of your stars are aligned".
For me timing is repeatability of the entire stroke from backswing to follow through (with necessary variations for a given type of shot).
Rhythm is pre-shot routine consistency including seeing the shot line, foot and body position, setting the bridge hand, relaxing the cue hand, etc.
Tempo is the speed at which you do it all including time between shots - some you do have to think about more before you get down, but for most you shouldn't over analyze, assume it's so simple you can rush it or put pressure on yourself because it's the game ball.
Now, can I accomplish all of this all the time? Nope, but when it's working you don't actually think about any of it, you just let your body do it. The less cognitive control you exert over you muscles the more muscle memory takes over and that's when the stars align. Read "The Inner Game of Tennis" or Tor Lowry's "Mental Game for Pool Players". You can't think fast enough during the actual stroke to control it - you'll just mess it up. You have to have the confidence that your plan, speed and aim will work. For me that's the hardest part - believing it will all come out the way I imagined it.
I think this hits the nail on the head - "when all of your stars are aligned".
For me timing is repeatability of the entire stroke from backswing to follow through (with necessary variations for a given type of shot).
Rhythm is pre-shot routine consistency including seeing the shot line, foot and body position, setting the bridge hand, relaxing the cue hand, etc.
Tempo is the speed at which you do it all including time between shots - some you do have to think about more before you get down, but for most you shouldn't over analyze, assume it's so simple you can rush it or put pressure on yourself because it's the game ball.
Now, can I accomplish all of this all the time? Nope, but when it's working you don't actually think about any of it, you just let your body do it. The less cognitive control you exert over you muscles the more muscle memory takes over and that's when the stars align. Read "The Inner Game of Tennis" or Tor Lowry's "Mental Game for Pool Players". You can't think fast enough during the actual stroke to control it - you'll just mess it up. You have to have the confidence that your plan, speed and aim will work. For me that's the hardest part - believing it will all come out the way I imagined it.
It weel be a Kumplokated gRaft bEEcuz UU weel heeght de bawll meeny tYmms.
bAHb <-- Mr. Beerbelly, Beerbelly, Get these mutts away from me ...
For those interested, the video and analysis related to this study can be found here:
stroke acceleration resource page
Enjoy,
Dave
I think of "timing" as the synchronization of all moving body parts from the beginning of the back stroke to the end of the follow through. That synchronization can be terrible, great and everything in between. Those of you that play golf recognize the importance of good timing. Timing also plays critical roles in throwing a football, or baseball or taking a slap shot in hockey, etc. It increases power and accuracy. In most sports, especially golf, the word "efficiency" is used. A seemingly effortless golf swing but the ball goes a mile. Timing is a cousin to tempo or rhythm, but not the same. If you watch pros like Strickland, Bustamante, Van Boening (and many others), you notice how easily they move the cue ball around the table, especially with racing follow shots or English. Timing is most apparent on draw or small-angle follow shots where the cue ball needs to travel a long way after impact. My 2c anyway...
I think the interpretation of timing has kind of a "choose your own adventure" angle to it, so it can mean something different to each person. Originally, I thought it had to do with how long you spent in the pause, if you do the Set-Pause-Finish stroke. However, that is something entirely separate.
I think what you described above is pretty close to my definition. Now that I've learned a bunch of things from the knowledgeable AZB peeps, my definition of timing would be a literal one. In an earlier post, somebody mentioned the dictionary definition of timing is "when you arrive" or something close to that. So, in terms of executing the stroke, the only thing that matters is timing when the cue tip impacts the CB and, if done properly, it will be at max velocity. If you include any body synchronization such as wrist motion in the shot to fine-tune that velocity, you'll need to time when you apply them as well, e.g. applying wrist motion too early or too late may lead to bad fine tuning results. But, the wrist motion is just another variable that rolls into the timing of impact between cue tip and CB.
Other terms such as tempo, rhythm, pace of play, warmup stroke speed, pause time in the backswing, and so on are preparation events that have time aspects to them, but are not included in the timing of the stroke execution to impact the CB. Also, where the tip placement is on contact is not related to timing.
Just my 2c. I'd love to ask Mark Wilson, the pool commentator, what he thinks timing is, because he's the guy who said it, which made me start this thread. I'm glad I did, b/c I've learned a ton.:thumbup:
I mayd Bob seely ha ha. :grin-square:
Think of the possibilities. It could be a required shot at artistic shooting events or at least a booth at the Expo: most contacts or least contacts or booby drawing; endless...
rporter314
New member
I was confused when I first heard the term, "timing". Over a period of time I think I understand what it is.
I see it in two contexts but both are related to this example.
If you are working on a repetitive process, you can break it down to key components. Suppose your process is 4 parts, each of which requires a certain time to complete. At some point you would have learned how much time it would take to complete each part and thus the whole. You would have developed an algorithm for both efficiency and effectiveness. If at some time during the process you bump a finger/hand you will probably affect the time it takes to complete process as well as probably introducing some error.
The process in pool I would simplify to the start of when your hand touches the table, you are down and begin the first sighting/stroking. Once you have developed your personal process any variation could change the "timing" of the process and could result in a flubbed shot.
The second type is breaking. Someone used the word synchronization and that is important I believe in the breaking process. Your body starts moving at some point to strike the cue with as much energy as possible (if you are trying to break hard). If you raise up before you reach that critical point, you will lose a lot of energy when you hit the cue. In other words your timing was off.
Don't underestimate the power of timing.
I see it in two contexts but both are related to this example.
If you are working on a repetitive process, you can break it down to key components. Suppose your process is 4 parts, each of which requires a certain time to complete. At some point you would have learned how much time it would take to complete each part and thus the whole. You would have developed an algorithm for both efficiency and effectiveness. If at some time during the process you bump a finger/hand you will probably affect the time it takes to complete process as well as probably introducing some error.
The process in pool I would simplify to the start of when your hand touches the table, you are down and begin the first sighting/stroking. Once you have developed your personal process any variation could change the "timing" of the process and could result in a flubbed shot.
The second type is breaking. Someone used the word synchronization and that is important I believe in the breaking process. Your body starts moving at some point to strike the cue with as much energy as possible (if you are trying to break hard). If you raise up before you reach that critical point, you will lose a lot of energy when you hit the cue. In other words your timing was off.
Don't underestimate the power of timing.