Timing

ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Silver Member
What timing do you shoot most shots with and what role does timing play in your shots?

I an interested in discussing how individuals shoot here. What you actually do as opposed to theory. Extreme draw and follow can both benefit from altered timing but I am interested in more typical shots.

To clarify "timing". If you hit the cue ball before your forearm is either 90? to the cue stick or vertical, this is early timing. If you hit the cue ball when your forearm is 90? to the stick or vertical, this is neutral timing. Of course if you hit the cue ball after your forearm has passed this point, this is late timing.

So folks, how do you hit the cue ball? If you have a "why" you hit early or late besides being a long standing habit that works for you I am very interested in hearing that too.

Thanks,
Hu
 
Hu...According to your description, I shoot with neutral timing. We teach this concept, because it is the only time that the cuestick is as level as reasonable to the shot...thereby allowing a more accurate strike on the CB!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Using your terms I suppose that I hit a little early. No particular reason other than I like it and it feels right. Feels like it gives me more push and more follow through.
 
i shoot using neutral timing. It was explained to me at the bottom of your stroke your cue is perfectly level (forearm is 90 degrees) and it makes sense to me......i think it allows me to hit precisely where im aiming better than any other time in my stroke.
 
I'm neutral. I may want to start releasing early in a neutral position for faster c/b reaction. On longer draw shots I may want early timing, and start releasing early, it helps me get through the ball better. Late timing is pretty much out except for some short shots. On longer shots I get more swerve and its not as accurate. I use to play with a slip stroke so releasing early is natural for me.

Rod
 
Well thats an interesting question. I have never payed any attention to where my arm is in relation to when my tip hits whitey. I've always been focused on keeping my stroke straight you know straight thru the cb. i think as long as you hit where u want on whitey it shouldnt matter to much on when your tip hits whitey.
 
While I think everyone would like think they hit the ball at neutral, I am going to guess that most don't really know. Unless you have taped yourself shooting, you don't know. My experience in taping myself and others is that most people are hitting the CB late. When they do their warm up strokes, they usually go at least to neutral, and the tip is too far from the CB when they make the pause or at least their last warm up. Look for it, and you will see that many, even pros, contact the CB after neutral.

If your practice strokes don't stop at neutral, 90 degrees, and the tip of your cue isn't almost against the CB, then your not hitting the CB at 90 degrees on your final stroke.
 
Deadon said:
While I think everyone would like think they hit the ball at neutral, I am going to guess that most don't really know. Unless you have taped yourself shooting, you don't know. My experience in taping myself and others is that most people are hitting the CB late. When they do their warm up strokes, they usually go at least to neutral, and the tip is too far from the CB when they make the pause or at least their last warm up. Look for it, and you will see that many, even pros, contact the CB after neutral.

If your practice strokes don't stop at neutral, 90 degrees, and the tip of your cue isn't almost against the CB, then your not hitting the CB at 90 degrees on your final stroke.
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Very true, many address the c/b over an inch away especially players with limited experience. I use to teach, it wasn't uncommon to see address position closer to two inches away. Having the student move their grip hand back two inches or more was very common. Many did address the c/b closer but their grip hand was still way to far forward.

When you put them in the correct position it can be really foreign to them. They tend to push whitey. They have to learn how it effects timing and learn to release earlier. If a player is under 1/2" at address and approx 90 degrees its close enough.

Rod
 
Thanks everyone and please keep the replies coming

I much appreciate all of the replies and am still looking for more. I am seriously considering modifying my stroke and it isn't something I take lightly after this many years.

It will take a lot of work to not slip into old habits so I want to make the right change the first time.

Thanks,
Hu
 
Deadon and Rod have hit the nail squarely on the head. Great posts! This is why we teach our students to push their tip up VERY close to the CB (1/8" if you wear no glasses; 1/2" if you wear glasses). When this close you see if your forearm is perpendicular.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Rod said:
Very true, many address the c/b over an inch away especially players with limited experience. I use to teach, it wasn't uncommon to see address position closer to two inches away. Having the student move their grip hand back two inches or more was very common. Many did address the c/b closer but their grip hand was still way to far forward.

When you put them in the correct position it can be really foreign to them. They tend to push whitey. They have to learn how it effects timing and learn to release earlier. If a player is under 1/2" at address and approx 90 degrees its close enough.

Rod
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ShootingArts said:
[...]
[...] Extreme draw and follow can both benefit from altered timing but I am interested in more typical shots.
Click to expand...

What benefit do you see coming for extreme draw or follow from this?

To clarify "timing". If you hit the cue ball before your forearm is either 90? to the cue stick or vertical, this is early timing. If you hit the cue ball when your forearm is 90? to the stick or vertical, this is neutral timing. Of course if you hit the cue ball after your forearm has passed this point, this is late timing.

So folks, how do you hit the cue ball? If you have a "why" you hit early or late besides being a long standing habit that works for you I am very interested in hearing that too.
Click to expand...


I strive to hit with what you call neutral timing. Benefits to this are, as Scott mentioned, the stick is most level there. But a second important consideration is this is the point of zero acceleration (the stick is neither speeding up nor slowing down). This means the speed of the stick is insensitive to small errors in the "timing" and a consequence is better speed control.
 
tangent arcs.

mikepage said:
What benefit do you see coming for extreme draw or follow from this?
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Tangent arcs instead of the intersection of a line and an arc. The surface of the cue ball and the surface of the tip are moving in more compatible directions during the contact time.

Hu
 
mikepage said:
What benefit do you see coming for extreme draw or follow from this?

I strive to hit with what you call neutral timing. Benefits to this are, as Scott mentioned, the stick is most level there. But a second important consideration is this is the point of zero acceleration (the stick is neither speeding up nor slowing down). This means the speed of the stick is insensitive to small errors in the "timing" and a consequence is better speed control.
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Have to disagree with you on this. Your cue should accelerate through the CB and then come to a natural stop. Your push/pulling/throwing the cue in a forward direction, constantly applying force, until your arm finishes its arc.

The result of this is if you want to increase your cue speed, increase the length of your bridge, because it allows you more time to accelerate the cue. IMHO, thats why many players use a particularly long bridge on their power breaks.
 
ShootingArts said:
What timing do you shoot most shots with and what role does timing play in your shots?

I an interested in discussing how individuals shoot here. What you actually do as opposed to theory. Extreme draw and follow can both benefit from altered timing but I am interested in more typical shots.

To clarify "timing". If you hit the cue ball before your forearm is either 90? to the cue stick or vertical, this is early timing. If you hit the cue ball when your forearm is 90? to the stick or vertical, this is neutral timing. Of course if you hit the cue ball after your forearm has passed this point, this is late timing.

So folks, how do you hit the cue ball? If you have a "why" you hit early or late besides being a long standing habit that works for you I am very interested in hearing that too.

Thanks,
Hu
Click to expand...

I have a slip stroke, and the delay of my delivery depends on the type of stroke I am executing for that particular shot ..

Most of it is feel,but some things are consistent with each shot(the way I approach the cueball,allignment,etc.)

What I found to be helpful for me with my development shootingarts, is experimentation..lots and lots and lots of it..I tried several different approaches,stances,strokes,rhythms, until I found what truly felt right for me ..So when I reached that comfort level, then my muscle memory took over, and now I never have any problems with that .

Because everyone has a different body type,different pace,different tendencies, and just plain ole' different way of doing things,it's really no cut and dry "right" way to improve those little nuances in your game other than practice,practice,practice and experimentation .

How do you know when it's right? when it feels right .when it's not forced .when it is effortless .when you're not thinking about it. when you are consistently following all the way thru your cue ball ..when you are splitting the wicket easily ..

That's when you know.
 
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Deadon said:
Have to disagree with you on this. Your cue should accelerate through the CB and then come to a natural stop. Your push/pulling/throwing the cue in a forward direction, constantly applying force, until your arm finishes its arc.

The result of this is if you want to increase your cue speed, increase the length of your bridge, because it allows you more time to accelerate the cue. IMHO, thats why many players use a particularly long bridge on their power breaks.
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Well hopefully were not pulling and definitely not pushing at impact. A throwing motion is a better description. Another term is let your hand ride the cue through impact.

Acceleration is an over used term that can cause just as many problems as your first two descriptions. I disagree with this, going through the c/b on a flat plane or 0 acceleration is much easier to control speed and more accurate. There should be no effort at impact, let the weight of the cue and arm take you through impact. Any tension only serves to restrict a relaxed full finish.

Increasing bridge length is an option to give more time to accelerate. The break shot is a good example. Most of the game however can be played with more than enough power and without increasing bridge length. Its not as accurate and a player should learn to feel the cue weight release at or just slightly before impact. That's my opinion opinion of course, besides the cue never accelerates through the c/b it always slows down.

Rod
 
mikepage said:
...But a second important consideration is this is the point of zero acceleration (the stick is neither speeding up nor slowing down). This means the speed of the stick is insensitive to small errors in the "timing" and a consequence is better speed control.
Click to expand...
Actually, the speed of the stick is less sensitive to errors in timing when impact occurs while the stick is still accelerating (positively). But that statement does entail an assumption about the shape of the force/time curve when not accelerating (ie, sinusoidal like), and that accelerating at impact means that the curve is essentially stretched out over time (ie, "w" in sin(wt) is smaller).

These are not unreasonable assumptions, I don't think, and the first one (sinusoidal like curve) is borne out by at least some of the accelerometer graphs that have been made available. The presence of harmonics does alter the numbers, but not enough to invalidate the conclusion...at least not with the ones which seem to produce a realistic representation of the accelerometer data.

Jim
 
I'd have to mirror/tape it, but I'm pretty sure I'm neutral. I used to be late because I used to have an absurdly long bridge. I guess bridge distance would play a big part in timing if you're not gripping really far forward or back on the butt end.
 
Reply to CreeDo and thread explanation

CreeDo said:
I guess bridge distance would play a big part in timing if you're not gripping really far forward or back on the butt end.
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For years I gripped very near the butt cap or even with my hand over the butt of the stick. I typically hit very early shooting like that. It worked for me at the time. I put more hours into pool than my day job and made as much or more money shooting pool than running construction jobs in the petro-chem plants or owning my businesses.

I don't think there is a stroke that can't be made to work if you are willing to put over forty hours a week into it for years. These days I am putting more hours into my business and maybe a tenth of the time on a pool table that I once did. I am a 'tweener these days. The people that I would once have beaten most of the time would beat me the vast majority of the time now. At the same time, I am not welcome to gamble with bangers or play in banger tournaments. I'm bad for business.

It would be hard for anyone to coach me to be able to reassemble my one off stroke when it isn't working. However, there are methods to correct the pendulum stroke when it isn't working and the SAM aiming system has the added advantage of giving a framework for communication between a student and an instructor. Although I know that it isn't the only way to get the job done, SPF instruction is definitely one method and I think it is probably the easiest method to teach. That is a major consideration for all instructors. "If it feels good do it" may work but it would take hundreds or thousands of hours to teach that.

Getting instruction on how to play pool feels as alien as someone trying to teach this southern boy how to eat fried chicken but I want to be more consistent with the reduced playing time. Too, although my eyesight is still 20/20, it isn't the razor sharp eyesight that once let me get myself out of trouble with table length "impossible" cut shots that were once my trademark.

The replies in this thread just helped solidify my thinking. As a nod to my old style and someone whose knowledge I respect I will focus on forearm 90? to the stick or a slight bit earlier rather than the vertical forearm that is often fairly late depending on the demands of the shot. However it is time to focus on building new basics awhile and then off to SPF school somewhere.

Hu
 
Jal said:
Actually, the speed of the stick is less sensitive to errors in timing when impact occurs while the stick is still accelerating (positively).
Click to expand...

What am I missing here? Isn't acceleration by definition the sensitivity (derivative) of the speed of the stick with respect to time?



But that statement does entail an assumption about the shape of the force/time curve when not accelerating (ie, sinusoidal like), and that accelerating at impact means that the curve is essentially stretched out over time (ie, "w" in sin(wt) is smaller).
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I'm not following you Jim.
 
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