Tip Curvature/Break Stick/Increase Cue Ball Speed?

Patrick Johnson said:
Thanks. I'm sure my terminology could use work, but I believe the cue speed-to-weight tradeoff is real. ...
Click to expand...
Yes, but I think it doesn't give a clear choice.

For a 20-ounce cue stick and a 6-ounce ball, the ball will leave the tip at 153.8% of the stick speed if no energy is lost in the collision.

For a 21-ounce cue stick and a 6-ounce ball, you get 155.5% of the stick speed. That's only a 1% increase in speed ratio for a 5% increase in stick weight. If the 21-ounce cue is 1.5% harder to get up to speed, you break even on the cue switch.

If you go to a ten-pound cue stick, you get a ball speed about 193% of the stick speed, but good luck in getting that heavy stick -- 160 ounces -- to move as fast as a 20-ounce stick. In the other direction, with a 6-ounce cue stick, the ball will be going only 100% of the stick speed. You would have to achieve a 54% increase in hand speed to match the 20-ounce stick. If you want to test at the extremes, it's only fair to spend a few hours getting used to the weight.

Note that I have assumed perfect efficiency for the hit. If there is energy lost, it's probably around the same percentage for heavy and light sticks, and the ratios will not change much.

Somewhere in the range of 6 ounces to 160 ounces, there is a weight that gives you the highest ball speed. From very general principles, around the best weight, there will be a fairly broad range of weights, like +- two ounces, that will give you close to the same ball speed. If you go from 20 to 19 ounces and feel there is a huge improvement, there is probably something other than physics and physiology going on.
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
Thanks. I'm sure my terminology could use work, but I believe the cue speed-to-weight tradeoff is real.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Absolutely it is correct, the formula was just incorrect. I am 6'3" and 165lbs. Yeah, beanpole. I don't have the strength (i.e. the 'F' in the F=ma) to accelerate a heavy cue in a controlled manner when overcoming my long arms (mechanical disadvantage). I can, however, easily move a lighter cue to a high speed using little strength, increasing control and accuracy, by using my length as an advantage.

When one balances the Kinetic energy equations (K.E.=1/2mV^2), it is easy to see that a small increase in velocity makes up for a larger decrease in mass.

All this to say, yes, cue weight makes a difference if one can maintain better control at a higher speed with a light cue. Some people are able to accelerate a 24oz cue as quickly as they can accelerate a 18oz cue, and they should use the heavier cue.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
... Some people are able to accelerate a 24oz cue as quickly as they can accelerate a 18oz cue, and they should use the heavier cue.
Click to expand...
I would find that very surprising. I think everyone is going to be slowed down by the extra six ounces. Some won't be slowed down as much.
 
Island Drive said:
.... how could a pointed tip, not increase forward speed when coming thru the shot? ...
Click to expand...
I can see no reason why it should. If you are interested in doing a simple, accurate test to find a best kind of tip, here's how you can do that:

Get a 50-pound block of steel or an anvil. Hang the cue tip-down above the block. Release it and note how high it bounces. The percentage or fraction of bounce is what you want to look at. Repeat this for the various things you want to test. The setup that bounces the highest is best at transferring energy from the stick to the ball.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Maybe, maybe not. My whole post I tried to make sure to emphasize control and I think that is key to the argument.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think the whole trend in modern breaking is towards control. Even to the extent that Corey Deuel has been known to use his playing cue to break with. I think the advantage of an "efficient" cue is that you can achieve the same ball speed with less stick speed and presumably better control. Phenolic tips have been shown to produce more ball speed for the same stick speed.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I can see no reason why it should. If you are interested in doing a simple, accurate test to find a best kind of tip, here's how you can do that:

Get a 50-pound block of steel or an anvil. Hang the cue tip-down above the block. Release it and note how high it bounces. The percentage or fraction of bounce is what you want to look at. Repeat this for the various things you want to test. The setup that bounces the highest is best at transferring energy from the stick to the ball.
Click to expand...

That test is not a valid measurement of the situation. Your test absolutely relies on a lot of factors that simply don't exist when hitting a cueball.
 
actually in practice on the table a lighter stick will give slightly more cueball speed as acceleration is better than extra weight. however, with more acceleration comes less accuracy by default from a moving arm going forward. and heavier weight should make it easier to go straight within reason of course.

so it is likely better for most players to use a heavy cue for breaking to improve the accuracy of the hit with the same or close to the same speed as a slightly lighter cue.
 
there are trade off not listed yet. a faster cueball , though it may scatter the rack slightly more. also is more likely to scratch. and that penalty against a top player spells disaster on the rack and next break if playing winner breaks.

so giving up slightly more speed for accuracy and less chance of scratching, may or may not for you, far out weight a small acceleration gain.
 
maha said:
there are trade off not listed yet. a faster cueball , though it may scatter the rack slightly more. also is more likely to scratch. and that penalty against a top player spells disaster on the rack and next break if playing winner breaks.

so giving up slightly more speed for accuracy and less chance of scratching, may or may not for you, far out weight a small acceleration gain.
Click to expand...

I didn't think I needed to explain what 'control' means.
 
Thx ya'll for the diversity of perspectives it helps this brain work better, sometimes :).
So....
You started early 60's.... using the Williards nickle rounder.... but yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears later, I
switched to the dime. Humm. anwho
Lets assume.... below
All players shooting cues have a 60 degree curvature. Is Williards a 60?.

I have no feelings either way on thee above 60 degree statement, I found that bite very logical made sense, good information.
So this break cue product shows up yrs ago and gets better with time and WOW.... your NOW breaking better.

Final Question.... :).
Do ALL break cues work best with a 60 degree tip curvature?
bm
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think force = mass * acceleration squared, so reducing the cue's weight to increase its speed is often the easiest way to increase its force into the CB.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
The fastest speed I could attain on the break was about 15mph using an 18.5 oz cue, my break was terrible, I now use a 22.5 oz break cue and consistently make balls, If like me you are not blessed with a fast stroke this is a way around it.
 
SSP said:
The fastest speed I could attain on the break was about 15mph using an 18.5 oz cue, my break was terrible, I now use a 22.5 oz break cue and consistently make balls, If like me you are not blessed with a fast stroke this is a way around it.
Click to expand...
You bring up a point I was looking for in this thread. At what point do you sacrifice accuracy of your hit on the break. In my case, I have had both shoulders “repaired” and tend to get a bit wonky if I go for too much acceleration on the break. I have had to look at different weights in my break cue to actually find a match up between speed and weight to maximize my success. I find that being able to hit exactly where I want to in the rack is far more effective for me and requires me to slow down a little and add a little to the weight of my break cue. I guess one shoe will never fit everyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SSP
yes and a center ball hit with sometimes up or down a little is all most anyone breaking should do.
 
Island Drive said:
Because of a recent article saying 60 degrees is the correct tip curvature to grab and initiate cue ball spin, it started me thinkin' again.
Break sticks hummmmm.... Nowadays they seem to offer a good product to help increase forward cue ball speed.
Ferrule materials also, seem especially important, tho sometimes materials can be illegal.
Here's what I'm gonna try and I can't see How it would not help my break speed, I'll try it on my cheap jumper either way.
I just sanded down my break stick tip to (guessing a 80 degree angle) making the tip very pointed.
Because the curvature of the tip grabs.... how could a pointed tip, not increase forward speed when coming thru the shot?

bm
Click to expand...
Not sure if I got you. Did I understand you right that you rounded your tip towards a smaller radius?

In my opinion, if it goes about maximizing the cueball horizontal speed, a bigger tip radius (pretty flat tip) is better than a smaller tip radius (pretty round tip). Why I think so? As rounder a tip --> as more it will be compressed, and by this the rebound action will start later, whereas a more flat tip will not be compressed so much and will rebounce earlier. But it is not only the timing factor, also the loss of energy that compresses the tip, will be higher at rounder tips. And as rounder tips are, as more unstable they behave.

Imaginge a rounded tip like a shock absorber, this will help understanding this issue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top