tip hardness

[RoadHustler]

Tested it... I can draw a table and a half (7 foot table w/napless cloth well worn) with a phenolic tip (white) with master chalk (light green).

Addendum: with the balls one diamond from the pocket and one diamond apart

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[arps]

Florian Kohler of Venom trickshots uses Kamui Black super soft.

 

[RoadHustler]

He uses several cues for different things

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[vincentwu817]

And that exact question was answered multiple times on the first page of this thread.

You are correct, at least to me, trying to hit a draw shot with a ceramic tip feels bad and the sound sends shivers down my spine. You can get enough chalk on one to hit the draw shot, give it a try.

Where can I find a ceramic cue tip? Will I need a 30 dollar Kamui chalk for it to hold?

 

[vincentwu817]

If everything else is the same in the comparison, and if the tip is holding chalk, tip hardness should make no relevant difference in draw; although the "feel" is different with a harder tip.

If the stroke is the same in the comparison, a harder tip will actually give a little extra speed to the CB. Therefore, less backspin will be lost on the way to the OB, and this will create slightly more draw. So I guess you could say that a hard tip will draw the ball slightly more.

However, a softer tip might be less likely to miscue at large tip offsets, especially if it holds chalk better than the harder tip in the comparison.

For more information, see:

cue tip hardness resource page
cue "hit," "feel," and "playability"
cue tip efficiency

Enjoy,
Dave

Despite the marketing, what would you say are the primary performance differences between different branded cue tips given that their hardness level are about the same?

 

[dr_dave]

Despite the marketing, what would you say are the primary performance differences between different branded cue tips given that their hardness level are about the same?

Honestly, I don't know for sure; but I suspect there is very little actual performance differences among the different popular brands of tips. Again, different brands, types, and hardnesses might "feel" different and have slightly different "efficiencies." And maybe some tip materials might hold chalk better than others. But, other that that, I don't suspect there are really any significant "performance" differences.

Regards,
Dave

 

[vincentwu817]

Honestly, I don't know for sure; but I suspect there is very little actual performance differences among the different popular brands of tips. Again, different brands, types, and hardnesses might "feel" different and have slightly different "efficiencies." And maybe some tip materials might hold chalk better than others. But, other that that, I don't suspect there are really any significant "performance" differences.

Regards,
Dave

Thank you. That would be my initial take on it too. I only ask because I have friends who ask me to recommend gear such as shafts and tips and sometimes I find it difficult to give a good answer objectively.

 

[poolplayer2093]

And that exact question was answered multiple times on the first page of this thread.

You are correct, at least to me, trying to hit a draw shot with a ceramic tip feels bad and the sound sends shivers down my spine. You can get enough chalk on one to hit the draw shot, give it a try.

All I saw was condescending responses about "work on ur stroke dummy"

 

[vincentwu817]

All I saw was condescending responses about "work on ur stroke dummy"

Funny because the OP did not even come close to asking "What tip should I choose for a better draw?" At least thats not what I got out of it.

 

[chevybob20]

A tip pick works on a phenolic tip. It leaves dimples that serves to hold chalk well.

 

[RoadHustler]

I didn't mean to be condescending sorry.

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[Drawback]

Tonight, I put Dudley tips on two of my really good maple shafts and they perform as well as my Kamui soft tips I have on other really good maple shafts. I noticed an equivalent amount of spin from these tips. I like the idea of the price difference. I'm getting huge amounts of draw.

I have ordered some "Milk Duds" from Jeff and I'm looking forward to a comparison since many on this forum swear by his tips.

 

[JayKidd]

The softer tip conforms more to the surface it contacts (cue ball) therefore more energy is transferred to the contacted surface, hence more draw. However, as mentioned in other responses the stroke is the primary factor.

In general, softer tips will cause a lot more energy LOSS during compression versus their harder counterparts.

 

[nobcitypool]

All I saw was condescending responses about "work on ur stroke dummy"

I guess I didn't see that at all. Perception is everything however. :smile:

 

[nobcitypool]

Where can I find a ceramic cue tip? Will I need a 30 dollar Kamui chalk for it to hold?

You might. I can do a pretty good job at it with some regular Master. LOL Granted, I prefer the Kamui.

 

[The Renfro]

In general, softer tips will cause a lot more energy LOSS during compression versus their harder counterparts.

COR/Energy Transfer on most softs is usually 52-57% 58-67% for mediums and 65 to 73% on the hards... However at higher speeds different tips will actually act differently because they are firm in construction even tho they may be soft grades of leather... The Pooldawg8 milk duds and our Ki-Tech Softs are prime examples of soft tips that have the firm property....

 

[naji]

How would you say tip hardness effects draw?

YES , and NO , to cause extreme draw you need friction between CB and tip and hit reasonably low, try with your palm of hand, if it is dry you do not get much action as moist..

All tips on the market soft and hard have similar friction factor properties with chalk therefore IMO will be very minimal change.

On the other hand, if the tip is made out of high friction rubber, then a soft tip will cause more spin than a hard tip! debatable..Trick shots artist use large tip to power draw!

The real eye opener is to get the tip to hit low enough, short 6" bridge is perfect, you need to know how to power it the right way. A good instructor can show you how..

 

[JayKidd]

same feelings here. Some tips have more "bounce" than others, regardless of their relative hardness difference.

During the impact, tips got compressed between the cue ball and cue, some kinectic energey was stored in the tip. However, the tip, leather or not, doesn't behave as a spring or a perfect elastic material, it releases energy in a different pace than it obsorbs them.

My theory is that newly installed or higher quality tips release their energy by generating more sideway force to the cue ball. Resulting higher rotation speed. This type of feedback is somewhat irregular, non-linear, so people may feel strange and feel it harder to control. After the tip lost most of its elasity, the extra "draw power" will be gone. And at the same time, the overall higher COR still govern the energy transfer between the cue and the cue ball, just the distribution between translational speed and rotation speed are different.

This type of materials are called Hyperelastic, leather, rubber are two examples.

My experience: when I was a fairly new player with no stroke to speak of I shot with an Elkmaster and could not draw. I switched to the harder Triangle tips and my draw greatly improved. A few years later, with a more developed stroke, I made the move to Kamui black medium and my draw again improved greatly, even to the point where I had to make adjustments because I was getting draw on strokes that had been stop shots with the Triangle.

Kamui is definitely a different beast than the other two so I don't know that a good hardness comparison can be drawn from this but certainly as a newer player the harder tip helped my draw.

 

[The Renfro]

same feelings here. Some tips have more "bounce" than others, regardless of their relative hardness difference.

During the impact, tips got compressed between the cue ball and cue, some kinectic energey was stored in the tip. However, the tip, leather or not, doesn't behave as a spring or a perfect elastic material, it releases energy in a different pace than it obsorbs them.

My theory is that newly installed or higher quality tips release their energy by generating more sideway force to the cue ball. Resulting higher rotation speed. This type of feedback is somewhat irregular, non-linear, so people may feel strange and feel it harder to control.

This type of materials are called Hyperelastic, leather, rubber are two examples.

You actually may understand tips better than most tip makers... Green to you sir....... Rate of rebound has tons to do with Hyperelastics... to the point that the dwell time at contact comes into play....

 

[JayKidd]

You are right, at lower speeds, the energy loss difference are minimal between tips with different hardness. At different loading speed, a well structured soft leather can be much more resilient.

Hard/Soft & Firm/Flexible should be used in their own contexts. The same thing can be said about shafts.

COR/Energy Transfer on most softs is usually 52-57% 58-67% for mediums and 65 to 73% on the hards... However at higher speeds different tips will actually act differently because they are firm in construction even tho they may be soft grades of leather... The Pooldawg8 milk duds and our Ki-Tech Softs are prime examples of soft tips that have the firm property....