Tip Install Issues

I have 2 of Joel's cue myself, never had a problem out of any of the 4 shafts. 1 has a kamui on it and the other 3 have an UltraSkin. All4 tips have been on for over a year with one of them being my everyday player. I bang the living crap out of a medium US and have never had one pop off...... on any of my JD cues at least. Ipretty much use the same method that Kim has described installing them.
 
rhncue said:
Same here Brent. I changed most of the ferrules on "Snooker's Cue-tecs but then he practically gave those away an replaced with new, cheaper cue-tecs and the pain started all over again. At the time I was doing his house cues for 3.00 each. The new ones needed ferrules replaced and he figured he shouldn't have to pay for new tips to replace the ones that would come off. That's when I quit doing their repair work and you started.

Dick
Click to expand...
i forgave you for that long ago :smile:
:rotflmao:
the replacements were equally as bad
 
Thanks for the input!

I very much appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge/experiences.

I am going to do a 2 step approach. An install with the steps provided by Kim. For an adhesive another cue builder out of Phoenix suggested using Loctite 454 (?).

I too thought about using a carbon fiber pad. Might be a good idea? I shoot mainly with OB shafts and send my shafts down to "Doc" for new tips. They come back perfect every time. I see the carbon fiber pad they use and thought it might be a good idea for this shaft?

If the next install doesn't work, it's time for a new ferrule.

Thanks again all... I'll post a follow-up with my results.
 
3kushn said:
Maybe all you guys (cue builders and reprairmen) already know this stuff but I'm mentioning this because all I ever hear is Super Glue or Loctite Gel. I assume this is in part because its so darn easy to find plus it does work great in most cases. But looks like not on these cheap ferrules.

Loctite's web site isn't conducive to my point so I'll use Permabond. See below basic variety of off the shelf adhesives and their general properties. Note a couple are specific to Impact and Shear Strength. #735 and #737. The OP's draw shot caused shear load.

The card for the Loctite Gel calls out impact but what about shear strength. On the Industrial side of the Loctite brand, there's many more application specific products, so I'm not promoting any brand here, just showing a simple list of formulate properties of "Super Glues"

http://www.permabond.com/en/en-contact-all.php?form_type=cyanoacrylate_selector

Not a cuemaker, just an industrial products junky.
Click to expand...

3Kushn,

Thanks for the link to the product info. It's interesting that the two that you highlighted are both black in color. Should work pretty well for black tips, but I wonder about others.
But good information all the same.
:thumbup:
Gary
 
Zims Rack said:
I've had this issue multiple times on import cues. First couple that popped off, I replaced ferrule and tip; next few I just put a fiber pad between ferrule and tip- none have returned!

Zim's Samsung Tablet
Click to expand...

That's an idea worth trying!
Thanks!
:thumbup:
Gary
 
GBCues said:
3Kushn,

Thanks for the link to the product info. It's interesting that the two that you highlighted are both black in color. Should work pretty well for black tips, but I wonder about others.
But good information all the same.
:thumbup:
Gary
Click to expand...

Gary
I didn't notice the color. I was only looking for applications, knowing that molecularly the various products have different structures tha serve different purposes. Not all glues are equal. Probably every one will keep a tip on, until you use it. In other words you could probably use the majority of them and not be able to pull the tip off (in a straight line) without tearing the leather.

Black and Brown goes well together. Should be really thin, thinner than the carbon fiber pads.
 
A quick note about CA adhesives.

CA's are made in a broad range of viscosities. I've seen it as thick as maple syrup to so thin it will climb a wick. In it's purest form, the super thin stuff, it's at it's greatest strength. In order to make it thicker, they have to add stuff to it. Impurities, for lack of a better word. Basically, anything added to it dilutes the actual CA so it's not only thicker, but also weaker or less effective.

Gell CA's have been used for years to glue on tips, and it certainly is up to the task. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't have been used for years! However, that doesn't mean it's the CA that's best suited to glue tips on cues. The thickness of the gell makes it easier to work with, but also sacrifices glue strength. I prefer to use something right in the middle, LocTite Professional.

Professional has a lot of good things going for it. It's much thinner than the typical gell that I used to use so I believe it's stronger and glues better. I like the bottle it comes in. It's easy to handle and not make a mess. I also don't have to worry about cracking open or breaking the foil tubes that the gel comes in and getting it all over everything. But probably most important is that I know it's fresh. I could buy it by the carton direct from a distributor and get a better price but I don't. I buy it at Home Depot, right off the shelf. The reason is that they sell a lot of it. Often, I go to get some and they only have a few bottles left. Within a couple of days, the shelf is full again. The fact that it' moving not only means it's popular, but also that its fresh. It's hard to know how long a bottle or tube of glue has been sitting on that shelf.


And, for those who may not realize where I'm coming from, we do hundreds of tips every week. I think it's safe to say that we have more experience at this than most.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Tips

I have had tips pop off after having a cuemaker do them, and then have bouight some super glue at my local QuikTrip, and put them back on agains with it. They have all stayed after that, but you have to line it up quickly since it dries so fast.

I am not completely sold on the super glue gel.
 
I'm with Royce on the Professional Liquid vs the gels. I used to use gels, then started having some problems, switched to the Liquid Professional based on someone's recommendation here and that has been doing well.

With regard to freshness, it seems that Loctite has changed the batch codes on the bottom of their bottles. The new key is here:

http://www.loctite.co.th/tht/content_data/Loctite_Shelf_Life.pdf

FYI

Gary
 
Been using Loctite Professional for a couple yrs now, and like it better than anything else that I've tried, mostly because of all the reasons that Royce mentioned. Gary, thanks for the batch code update, now I will be able to be assured that the new bottle is really new.

Alan
 
GBCues said:
I'm with Royce on the Professional Liquid vs the gels. I used to use gels, then started having some problems, switched to the Liquid Professional based on someone's recommendation here and that has been doing well.

With regard to freshness, it seems that Loctite has changed the batch codes on the bottom of their bottles. The new key is here:

http://www.loctite.co.th/tht/content_data/Loctite_Shelf_Life.pdf

FYI

Gary
Click to expand...


That's cool, I'll have to check them out.

I just know that when I get there and take the last 6 to 10 bottles it takes them a few days to replenish. I'm pretty confident they move it fast enough so that I don't ever have to worry about having old stuff.

I'm surprised they haven't become suspicious that maybe I use it to make drugs or something. They always look at me kind of funny when I need both hands to carry all the packages they had left.

Royce
 
I've got the same problem with a customer's shaft! This will be the 4th install with a new triangle tip each time. Customer plays with it for a short time and tip pops off with bottom English. Used new glue the first 2 times and used epoxy the 3rd time. same results with the tip popping off. I will change the ferrule next and reapply the tip. This shaft had me thinking that I didn't know what the ##$$%%% I was doing. Been doing this too long to get beat by an import. Luckily the customer has bought plenty of billiards supplies from me so I can gladly eat the cost for the ferrule and tip. thanx for the post.
 
RBC said:
A quick note about CA adhesives.

CA's are made in a broad range of viscosities. I've seen it as thick as maple syrup to so thin it will climb a wick. In it's purest form, the super thin stuff, it's at it's greatest strength. In order to make it thicker, they have to add stuff to it. Impurities, for lack of a better word. Basically, anything added to it dilutes the actual CA so it's not only thicker, but also weaker or less effective.

Gell CA's have been used for years to glue on tips, and it certainly is up to the task. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't have been used for years! However, that doesn't mean it's the CA that's best suited to glue tips on cues. The thickness of the gell makes it easier to work with, but also sacrifices glue strength. I prefer to use something right in the middle, LocTite Professional.

Professional has a lot of good things going for it. It's much thinner than the typical gell that I used to use so I believe it's stronger and glues better. I like the bottle it comes in. It's easy to handle and not make a mess. I also don't have to worry about cracking open or breaking the foil tubes that the gel comes in and getting it all over everything. But probably most important is that I know it's fresh. I could buy it by the carton direct from a distributor and get a better price but I don't. I buy it at Home Depot, right off the shelf. The reason is that they sell a lot of it. Often, I go to get some and they only have a few bottles left. Within a couple of days, the shelf is full again. The fact that it' moving not only means it's popular, but also that its fresh. It's hard to know how long a bottle or tube of glue has been sitting on that shelf.


And, for those who may not realize where I'm coming from, we do hundreds of tips every week. I think it's safe to say that we have more experience at this than most.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

Royce,

You're probably 100% correct on freshness at the box stores but I'll tell you that a good Industrial Distributor will keep their CA inventory in a refrigerator till its sold and also rotate inventory and keep track of date codes.

Their customers require and deserve fresh products and they don't enjoy issuing credits or throwing product in the trash. Its also one of those products that large users will run a lot of testing before deciding, and once the decision is made the distributor has a long term customer. Unless of course the product starts to fail. That opens the door for others to take the business. Don't like that either.

Get to know your Industrial Distributor. Not as convenient but 10,000% more to offer.

Depot and Lowes usually don't have customers that buy in large quantity and can better afford a few $3 returns.
 
I had some similar issues in the past with the really waxy ferrules that people mention. In fact I think I had even posted on here asking about It, but seemed like very few wanted to admit to having the same issue for fear of ridicule I suppose. I'm happy to see people are more open these days. eventually I usually got them to stick, I just didn't like them popping off even once.

I have a much better success rate as of lately. There's several things I do before gluing the tip on to see If It may give me trouble, and If It looks like It will there's a few things I sometimes do different.

1 is instead of facing with a manual tool I face under power with a small endmill, a dremel is enough to run It as long as It is dialed in center with the ferrule, but you have to be real carefull or you can do damage to the ferrule or simply cut too much material away from the facing if You don't set the depth of cut just right, as It can remove more material if You set the cut the same as a manual tool would be.

I sand the tip, put a dab of gel on the tip surface, and kind of paint It on to the mating surface of the tip, but keeping It level and not too thick at the same time. Then I sand that level until I'm just starting to get through the ca and just back into the leather of the tip, and then very slightly hatch mark It. I prefer to use the gel for this because It doesn't seem to soak in as much as thin can, yet It seems to work well enough for what I need.

The ferrule side I also hatch mark, but I also fold up a clean paper towel, open My acetone hold the paper towel over It, and do a dunk to just get a dab of the acetone on the paper towel, then dab the ferrule with It to clean and pull any debris & dust out and off the ferrule facing, and let It dry well before gluing the tip on. You can do this to the tip too, but after priming I have found It to not be as necessary as the ferrule side. You only want to touch the face with It, and not the side of the ferrule, and You don't want to soak It because acetone can easily melt into some ferrules if You over do it.


The endmill effects various materials differently, and leaves different mating surfaces depending on tool speeds, the better materials seem to face very smoothly, as where some of the waxier may come out a little sanded looking, only difference for me is that It's kind of like getting the facing and sanding in one, and I don't have to worry about making the face uneven like if I were to sand by hand, because facing with the endmill eliminates that issue. It's sort of like taking 2 birds with one stone. I know It's flat when I do It that way, but when If I were to sand after a facing It would always leave a hair of skepticism in the back of My mind.

I don't disagree with a really smooth surface working well with CA, because case in point... the clears seem to glue well with thin CA, and I have to admit before installing one The surface seemed too slippery to follow the manufactures guidelines for installation, yet I have followed them, and the ones I have done seem to be holding well so far. However I have seen tons of less then smooth, even boarder line rough surfaces hold fine.. That includes some of the ferrules that are hard to work with as mentioned in this thread.

I don't know if It's one thing that I do, or a combination of things, but It seems to be working much better. Works for me, but may not produce the same results for everyone, just too many variables to say.
 
Greg,

Thanks for posting your methods on here. I will try the acetone wipe on the next waxy that comes my way.

Alan

Phelps Custom Cues.
 
BHQ said:
i tried contacting cuetec about the same issue a few years ago
never did get a response
changed the ferrules on about 40 cuetec house cues out of complete frustration
Click to expand...

I had the same issue with a cuetec last year....3 tips.:mad:
 
aphelps1 said:
Greg,

Thanks for posting your methods on here. I will try the acetone wipe on the next waxy that comes my way.

Alan

Phelps Custom Cues.
Click to expand...

If You do use It be careful, It can do some damage, especially to those softer ferules. (I use the acetone very sparingly) I just dab It instead of wiping, to more less get material to stick and to pull It straight out, kind of like someone may try to remove a stain, and I think I even dab It with the dry part of the paper towel afterwards to make sure there is no residual left over. Then I let It sit and air dry well. If It's a slip tenon, and I can see the end of It, the color usually helps Me figure out when It's dry. When You dab It the wood darkens, but lightens back up as It dries. The longer I wait the better, but I don't always wait that long. Depends on My work load, and how pressed for time I am..
 
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