dendweller
Well-known member
I don't take any offense and to be honest, I'd guess that I've missed a lot of shots over the years trying to spin with top when in reality, it likely did nothing except make me miss balls.
Tip position and cue ball spin at CB/OB impact are two different things!
- Thread starter Tin Man
- Start date
Friction is what causes draw to wear off. But it is the time the cue ball slides across the cloth that determines how much help the table provides in wearing off backspin and then developing full roll.
I don't say this for you, but for the others following along that might benefit from it. I would like to think everything I wrote here is fairly obvious and yet I have yet to train with someone that doesn't make errors because of these things. I've posted three examples and a video of a guy shooting a kill shot trying to overspin the cue ball off the tip. If you don't make any of these mistakes then keep running out!
I get your questioning of this, but I think most players come around to his conclusion eventually. That is, if you ask any pro [Tin Man included] they really like to shoot with a rolling cue ball if they can. It is the most efficient way to move the ball around the table and the most controllable. It's not about physics and semantics, it's about reality and winning games.
You can think of it another way also: you can control a rolling cue ball with speed and not have to worry so much about tip offset. That IS an efficient way to play pool.
A cue ball with any amount of draw [that doesn't contact another ball] becomes a rolling cue ball eventually... it's just a matter of time. (hahahaha!)
-td
Tin Man,
I always look forward to your posts and podcasts with Josh. Keep'em coming. Thank you.
kollegedave
I always look forward to your posts and podcasts with Josh. Keep'em coming. Thank you.
kollegedave
Subscribing to read later 
Thank you kollege!
Hey td, thank you for your post. In my post I did mean efficient in the sense of explaining why the cue ball develops roll eventually. It is because of friction that roll is the most efficient and why this happens.
That said, you're absolutely right on that rolling is a great way to improve your pool game as well. This will segue into another post but here goes:
Each cue ball maneuver has what I call a 'scatter'. In other words, if you shot the shot 10 times and marked your resulting cue ball position each time, how big of a circle would it make? With a short distance stop shot you might have a 1" scatter. With a low outside multi-rail ziz-zag draw shot you might have a 3' scatter or worse.
What I've done is sorted different cue ball maneuvers into different categories depending on how accurately I can control the cue ball's speed and direction. I've identified those that give me the best control, and I play my patterns so that I am using these types of positional plays. My cue ball is much better than average, but sometimes I wonder if it's really my cue ball control or if it's my patterns. For example if I got to shoot a follow shot and my opponent had to shoot a draw shot it would make me look like I have better cue ball control, but do I really or am I just giving myself an advantage?
I could go on to my target/gun idea. Patterns are all about choosing a target and a gun. When you decide to play position for an area you are doing two things. You create a target to hit, and you select the gun you use to hit it. Most people hamper themselves in both areas. I have a lot to say about this when I train.
For now though I will say that rolling the ball is definitely easier to control. It also unlocks softer swing speeds as you're not fighting the table to maintain a slide or back spin. This also lends itself to consistency (moving the cue ball a short distance with a soft speed results in a tighter scatter than sliding it further with firmer speeds). So I have developed a toolbox of maneuvers that allow me to move my cue ball multiple rails, up and down the table, with highly accurate speed/direction. I call these my 'core shots'. Out of my 10 core shots, 7 of them are fully rolling cue balls with side spin as needed. 2 of them are stuns. Only one has draw. If I'm playing well I don't need to draw. I still need a low tip position to shoot soft stun shots, but you won't see me forcing the ball too often.
Now, watching pros play on brand new cloth and polished balls some things do change. The friction is greatly reduced making stuns/draws much easier, and meaning sidespin doesn't catch on the side rails as well. You'll see pros play a very slidy-drawy-centerbally type of game much of the time. But watch what happens when they play at a pool room with broken in cloth. The rolling balls and off center hits come out like a pack of wolves during a full moon. I hope people don't learn the wrong things watching these pros play on new equipment when they go play on Valleys!
Hey td, thank you for your post. In my post I did mean efficient in the sense of explaining why the cue ball develops roll eventually. It is because of friction that roll is the most efficient and why this happens.
That said, you're absolutely right on that rolling is a great way to improve your pool game as well. This will segue into another post but here goes:
Each cue ball maneuver has what I call a 'scatter'. In other words, if you shot the shot 10 times and marked your resulting cue ball position each time, how big of a circle would it make? With a short distance stop shot you might have a 1" scatter. With a low outside multi-rail ziz-zag draw shot you might have a 3' scatter or worse.
What I've done is sorted different cue ball maneuvers into different categories depending on how accurately I can control the cue ball's speed and direction. I've identified those that give me the best control, and I play my patterns so that I am using these types of positional plays. My cue ball is much better than average, but sometimes I wonder if it's really my cue ball control or if it's my patterns. For example if I got to shoot a follow shot and my opponent had to shoot a draw shot it would make me look like I have better cue ball control, but do I really or am I just giving myself an advantage?
I could go on to my target/gun idea. Patterns are all about choosing a target and a gun. When you decide to play position for an area you are doing two things. You create a target to hit, and you select the gun you use to hit it. Most people hamper themselves in both areas. I have a lot to say about this when I train.
For now though I will say that rolling the ball is definitely easier to control. It also unlocks softer swing speeds as you're not fighting the table to maintain a slide or back spin. This also lends itself to consistency (moving the cue ball a short distance with a soft speed results in a tighter scatter than sliding it further with firmer speeds). So I have developed a toolbox of maneuvers that allow me to move my cue ball multiple rails, up and down the table, with highly accurate speed/direction. I call these my 'core shots'. Out of my 10 core shots, 7 of them are fully rolling cue balls with side spin as needed. 2 of them are stuns. Only one has draw. If I'm playing well I don't need to draw. I still need a low tip position to shoot soft stun shots, but you won't see me forcing the ball too often.
Now, watching pros play on brand new cloth and polished balls some things do change. The friction is greatly reduced making stuns/draws much easier, and meaning sidespin doesn't catch on the side rails as well. You'll see pros play a very slidy-drawy-centerbally type of game much of the time. But watch what happens when they play at a pool room with broken in cloth. The rolling balls and off center hits come out like a pack of wolves during a full moon. I hope people don't learn the wrong things watching these pros play on new equipment when they go play on Valleys!
Great topic and thread - thanks to all!
Since nobody else has mentioned it, allow me to add a helpful detail: to get instant ”natural roll” on the CB (no sliding or overspin) hit it 2/5 of the distance from its center to its top edge (4/5 of maximum follow, about 1/2” above center).
That’s my go-to hit for any shot that doesn’t specifically need something else - it goes straightest, is easiest to judge speed/distance/carom angle, and produces little throw on cut shots.
pj
chgo
P.S. The same principle (turned on its side and adjusted for cut angle) works for natural “gearing” side spin too.
Since nobody else has mentioned it, allow me to add a helpful detail: to get instant ”natural roll” on the CB (no sliding or overspin) hit it 2/5 of the distance from its center to its top edge (4/5 of maximum follow, about 1/2” above center).
That’s my go-to hit for any shot that doesn’t specifically need something else - it goes straightest, is easiest to judge speed/distance/carom angle, and produces little throw on cut shots.
pj
chgo
P.S. The same principle (turned on its side and adjusted for cut angle) works for natural “gearing” side spin too.
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Thanks Patrick!
It's very important to be able to generate instant natural roll off the tip as you described.
Personally, I prefer not to do this as my go to. I prefer a center or half tip above center, letting the table develop my full roll. I feel I can sight the ball easier, and I can hit it a little more firmly because it functions as a slight drag shot. I saw a shot missed last week at the OH tournament (see image below) where a guy tried to roll a ball softly and he missed. Had he followed with center and hit it a little firmer he might have won that match. (To clarify, I'm not talking about a stun run through, I'm still intending the cue ball to be fully rolling prior to impact, just 10% more initial speed which will dissipate as the slide wears off)
Anyway, that's my preference. I only cue high when I'm shooting firm and/or am very close to the ball. Otherwise I prefer to let the roll develop. But whatever works for you is fine as long as you get where you're going!
I will hit lower on some shots for that reason and also on more shots to control the carom angle. Unfortunately, go-to shot opportunities aren't in the majority.
pj
chgo
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Interesting stuff. I never thought about the concept of Over spin like that, after CB meets OB. Transferring the speed but not the spin. I too thought that you could juice up the CB and have it over spinning right off the bat and that’s what was happening when the CB caught and took off again after contact. Good to know. I stopped actively trying to learn once I got to a certain level, complacency tsk tsk.
To answer an earlier question, the cue ball can roll, slide, or move forward while spinning backwards - not sure what that would be called. A serious gainer maybe.
To answer an earlier question, the cue ball can roll, slide, or move forward while spinning backwards - not sure what that would be called. A serious gainer maybe.
I watched a Nic Barrow video a couple of years ago where he was coaching a student of his on this exact thing. He said the best players in the world cue as low as possible to get their top spin, then went on to elaborate on what he meant by that and set up examples to demonstrate. He mentioned that cueing close to the center and allowing the CB to pick up roll naturally is the most accurate way to play follow shots, and also pointed out that you get a better strike on the CB by cueing closer to center since you’re striking a heavier piece of the CB. IIRC, he also went into the value and application of drag shots, as it relates to accuracy when shooting long shots.
I’ll see if I can find the video and link it. It was really interesting.
I’ll see if I can find the video and link it. It was really interesting.
A moving rotating sphere is definitely easier to control than a moving one with no rotation.
A little run on wider angled banks and kicks is related to the topic.
{Correct. That was just sort of how I tried to explain it. Sometimes I don't want the cue ball to slide at all. So I try to start it off rolling at tip contact with 1/2 tip high from Center. But, the harder you hit it, the higher you have to apply the cue tip to keep it from sliding}
whats actually happening is low actual acceleration at the moment of impact, like when a high speed low enough hit cb doesn’t draw if the acceleration and velocity are increasing at the contact moment…nothing more nothing less.
That’s what creates spin/rotation along the vertical axis, and it takes more on the vertical to do anything than it does to create side spin on the horizontal axis…friction and dispersion of weight in the ball and lower resistance from the friction on that axis to have rotation.
downward stroke, negative to 0 acceleration and your pushing the ball and not hitting it pure.
The farther you get out on the ball the less energy of momentum transferred, acceleration and velocity need to be higher to produce work.
Friction against the cloth produces slide. It’s highest at the moment of tip impact. And it has to be overcome that to roll initially from standstill when struck softly
where Δ𝛚 is the change in angular velocity and Δ𝑡 is the change in time.
Acceleration is the KEY and most important factor to creating Rotation. All of it.
Like the cb stuck to a rail and a very still light shaft, will have a tendency to produce a skidding cb and makes some players foul/double hit/skip off the cb semi miscue.
A stroke with a bell curve is all we need. Doesn’t mean the speeds are necessary. Just the speed increaseing consistently to the hit.
Extension of stroke is also of no consequence to the ability of power or spin to be transferred. You can get the same rotation values going 1” through the face of the cb as you can making the tip go 2’ past it.
Even having a longer stroke doesn’t so easily net a positive acceleration and velocity growth at the moment of contact….changes a lot when it doesn’t matter tho. It’s Probably the biggest small skill that’s most important in our game will f which novice and amateurs players have the biggest problem with.
That’s the rub
I have a friend who is a good player (Above fargo 600) who likes to stun and draw everything. I like to roll (almost) everything. I have told him in the past that doing this hurts his game and he just says "The pros stun and draw all the time". I've played with him enough that I can predict what pattern he will take and it almost always is one that involves a stun or a draw shot. This is even the case if he needs to go say 3 or 4 rails he will set up for the stun angle even when a rolling angle is available. I think a lot of the shots he misses are because he is hitting the ball way too hard and his stroke goes wild. I've pretty much given up on getting him to roll the ball more because he is convinced draw and stun is how professional pool is played from watching videos.
BTW: We are playing at pool halls that never change the cloth and are humid in the summer.
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Thank you for the reply. Pool players can be exasperatingly stubborn in their ideas of how pool ought to be played.
How I handle it is I don’t try to convince anyone of anything. If someone wants to pound their head against the wall I just step back and tell myself “that’s my competition”.
As for you, you have a duty to get two balls better than this guy and destroy him every time you two play. The proof is in the pudding, and don’t want to find yourself tsk tsking his approach without having shored up the weaknesses in your own game. This is why I’ll always be a competitor first and a coach second.
Keep going and keep rolling that ball!!!
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Tin Man,
I was working on #1 in the original post to this thread last night. I am 42. I have been playing pool 20 years, and I play o.k. My estimate is about a 650. Anyway, the observation you made about not needing to cue very high on the CB to follow effectively is not something I have ever been exposed to, or if I have been exposed to it, I don't recall anyone highlighting it, as you have in the original post. In any event, I spent some time last night testing your observation, and I think you are 100% correct.
The information you are providing in this thread is really great. I appreciate it.
kollegedave
Thank you Dave!
Where this makes a big difference is when you are using sidespin. If you are cueing at the maximum high you can’t go left or right because you run out of cue ball and will miscue. On the other hand if you are using maximum sidespin you can’t go high or low or you again run out of cue ball.
Knowing how to blend high/low with left/right is critical. So being aware that the cue ball will develop natural roll on its own allows you to cue more sidespin. In other words if you want to use ‘top right’ you can switch from cueing at 1 o’clock and instead cue at 2 or 3 o’clock to get more sidespin with the same effective topspin.
I still prefer 2 o’clock in most cases, I like a hair above center to help keep my cue stick level to avoid excessive swerve. I only go 3 o’clock if I really need to use 3 tips of spin and zing the ball. But I only go higher than 2 o’clock if I need full toll and I’m too close or shooting too firm for the table to help me get the cue ball rolling.
Thanks for the post!
Damn it... You're giving away all the trade secrets
Nobody listen to TinMan. Heavy draw shots are super cool, and the only thing women like more than scars.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'm going try to fish for some advice. I claim ignorance so if I'm not even asking the right question, what should I be asking?
I feel way more comfortable with stun and draw than follow, similar to @pw98 's friend. To me, I can get really great results with stun, but I know it's holding me back, especially on standard/non slick cloth. I have to shoot much harder than I'd like at times. I'm not in denial but I don't know how to proceed. I watch the guys I play with effortlessly roll the ball around naturally. When I try it, I usually miss my shot but can usually get the leave I want. If I'm playing naturally, in stroke, and not really thinking about it, follow comes more naturally to me. If I'm in a clutch situation, using follow almost always causes me to miss my target, even if the ball is pocketed, it's not where I was aiming in the pocket. If I'm in a clutch situation, I know I can make the ball with stun/draw and might have a harder next shot. Each shot gets progressively more difficult instead of better.
I got real good at stun shots and draw when practicing equal offense/14:1 and playing with real small distances. It hampers me on 9B. I know it and want to fix it.
So... How do I fix this? Is it a matter of drills, just practicing it more, etc? Any recommended drills? Do I just have to start doing it and take my licks until it becomes second nature? I gotta improve and not having a good natural roll on the CB isn't helping me improve at all.
I feel way more comfortable with stun and draw than follow, similar to @pw98 's friend. To me, I can get really great results with stun, but I know it's holding me back, especially on standard/non slick cloth. I have to shoot much harder than I'd like at times. I'm not in denial but I don't know how to proceed. I watch the guys I play with effortlessly roll the ball around naturally. When I try it, I usually miss my shot but can usually get the leave I want. If I'm playing naturally, in stroke, and not really thinking about it, follow comes more naturally to me. If I'm in a clutch situation, using follow almost always causes me to miss my target, even if the ball is pocketed, it's not where I was aiming in the pocket. If I'm in a clutch situation, I know I can make the ball with stun/draw and might have a harder next shot. Each shot gets progressively more difficult instead of better.
I got real good at stun shots and draw when practicing equal offense/14:1 and playing with real small distances. It hampers me on 9B. I know it and want to fix it.
So... How do I fix this? Is it a matter of drills, just practicing it more, etc? Any recommended drills? Do I just have to start doing it and take my licks until it becomes second nature? I gotta improve and not having a good natural roll on the CB isn't helping me improve at all.
I know and understand everything you said here and teach it myself; however, one thing I've been doing lately and I suggest others do it as well as part of their training routine, is clock drills.
Setting up a shot and shooting the same shot with different spins and then speeds. I'll shoot 10 shots of the same shot following the hands of the clock, first hard, then medium and then medium soft. It will train your muscle memory as to what the ball does with various types of spin and for those unlike us who just don't want to understand what is going on or are incapable of understanding, they can still get experiential competence, so that they don't make those mistakes.
Jaden
What top does is on angled shots help you to change the angle in combination with speed. Using a parabolic curve coming off of the ball, top can be utilized to bend around other balls that may be obstructing the natural path. A lot of the time, spin can do the same when shots are close to the rail. For example, if a shot right next to the rail requires you to go forward, but you have too much angle, some stun inside will take the ball forward off of the rail.
Jaden