Tip shape

[bbb]

this is from dr dave
i bolded a part for emphasis
i was partially correct in my statement above as i said larger tips are more forgiving
dr dave says larger,flatter as did patrick johnson above(thanks PJ)
..................................................
One advantage of a flatter tip is that a center-ball hit, with some tip placement inaccuracy, will generally have less unintentional english (and unexpected squirt/swerve/throw). In other words, a larger, flatter tip is more “forgiving” with misalignment errors for near-center-ball hits. It may also be easier to control small amounts of sidespin since more cue offset is required to create more sidespin, as compared to a rounder tip.
..........................................................
this is the link to his discussion on tips

Cue Tip Size and Shape Effects - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about cue tip shape and size effects.

billiards.colostate.edu

 

[SmoothStroke]

Now my dime shape seems so common.


pj
chgo

Rename it Penny, that will create a buzz .
You're far from common, you can't have a common tip.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

dr dave says larger,flatter as did patrick johnson above(thanks PJ)

You're welcome, Larry - but I still think larger is irrelevant; I think Dave probably mentioned it because a larger tip is more likely to be flatter.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Not sure if I should post this here or in the main forum. Trying here first.

Does tip shape influence accuracy?

I’ve played with a vintage Adam for a couple of years now. A few months ago I found another Adam for $100.

The older cue (right) is slightly narrower. 12.7mm vs 13.2.

The shape of the 12.7 is much rounder, in particular near the outer edges, than the 13.2.

The 12.7 is a Kamikaze Elite Medium; the 13.2 a soft.

I understand that a less experienced player such as myself may be more accurate with a wider tip. I am SO much more confident and accurate with the 13.2. For reference of my ability, this week I moved up to APA SL6, after six weeks of play this session. I am 4-0 in individual Scotch Doubles Winning 91.67% of points available, having gone rackless two weeks in a row. Our team is also undefeated in Scotch Doubles matches.

So, is my accuracy and confidence with the 13.2 borne of the wider tip, or is the much rounder shape contributing to lower accuracy with the 12.7?

Asked another way, do you all think shaping the 12.7 like the 13.2 will increase my accuracy (assuming my confidence is not all just in my head)? Thanks!
View attachment 665188

In general, amateurs who like a nickel shape find they get more spin with a dime but more errors, too.

Most amateurs should use a nickel roundness on a 13 mm tip IMHO.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In general, amateurs who like a nickel shape find they get more spin with a dime but more errors, too.

Most amateurs should use a nickel roundness on a 13 mm tip IMHO.

As I've posted before, the difference in where you contact the CB with a nickel vs. dime shape (blue vs. red below, with the same shaft offset) is too small to matter. Neither produces significantly more or less spin than the other.

pj
chgo

 

[phreaticus]

As I've posted before, the difference in where you contact the CB with a nickel vs. dime shape is too small to matter. Neither produces significantly more or less spin than the other with the same shaft offset.

pj
chgo

View attachment 666709

Patrick, you offer up this tip proclamation with great confidence about once a week.

“Too small to matter” & “significantly more or less” are subjective terms that don’t account for the amazing fidelity & sensitivity of our vision & touch.

Human vision can discriminate objects down to 1/1000”. Avg touch sensitivity is roughly the width of our fingerprint ridges. This is why most people can tell the difference between glass, metal & wood by blind touch.

Even the relatively crude capacitive touch screens on our smart phones, designed for blunt, rapid finger swipes - target optical-mechanical accuracy of < 1mm. Advanced haptic technologies associated with AR/VR applications deal with much finer resolutions. Human visual sensory touch performance is one of, if not the toughest areas of robotics.

There is a reason why many folks are very sensitive to relatively minor variances in tip shape, size, hardness, etc. That little contact point of our tip on the CB is our only physical connection to the balls.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Human vision can discriminate objects down to 1/1000”. Avg touch sensitivity is roughly the width of our fingerprint ridges. This is why most people can tell the difference between glass, metal & wood by blind touch.

Which has nothing to do with where the CB is contacted by tips with different curvatures stroked along the same line.

pj
chgo

 

[phreaticus]

Which has nothing to do with where the CB is contacted by tips with different curvatures stroked along the same line.

pj
chgo

Well, you're very sure of yourself. Ok, if you say so. I guess there is absolutely no good reason why most players pro & am - have preferences in these areas, they all simply need to read your posts more until they see the light. Cheers

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Well, you're very sure of yourself.

I'm pretty confident of facts I can see with my eyes. I can see by the scale drawing that the maximum difference in tip/ball contact (at maximum tip offset) for nickel vs. dime curvature is less than 1 mm (about 1/32 of an inch). I believe that's within the typical margin of stroke error for most players.

I guess there is absolutely no good reason why most players pro & am - have preferences in these areas

There may be legitimate reasons - the effect on tip/CB placement just isn't one of them.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

this is from dr dave
i bolded a part for emphasis
i was partially correct in my statement above as i said larger tips are more forgiving
dr dave says larger,flatter as did patrick johnson above(thanks PJ)
..................................................
One advantage of a flatter tip is that a center-ball hit, with some tip placement inaccuracy, will generally have less unintentional english (and unexpected squirt/swerve/throw). In other words, a larger, flatter tip is more “forgiving” with misalignment errors for near-center-ball hits. It may also be easier to control small amounts of sidespin since more cue offset is required to create more sidespin, as compared to a rounder tip.
..........................................................
this is the link to his discussion on tips

Cue Tip Size and Shape Effects - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about cue tip shape and size effects.

billiards.colostate.edu

Makes sense. So a nickel shape would be a tiny bit more forgiving than a dime shape. Just a tiny bit though, probably an insignificant amount, as PJ pointed out.

But exactly how much more spin is created by a tiny 1mm hit difference on the cb? I'm sure there's an equation for that in Dr. Dave's material.

For side spin we have 15 millimeters of contact area left or right of a center hit on the cb. 0 spin is a center hit, and maximum spin is hitting 15mm away from a center hit. That means a 1mm difference on the hit is about a 7% difference. Not sure how much more spin would be created if the tip hit the cb an additional 7% away from center. Somebody do the math please. Lol

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...how much more spin is created by a tiny 1mm hit difference on the cb?

And remember that's the maximum difference between a nickel and dime shape (at maximum tip offset) - how often do we use maximum spin? Less tip offset = less difference (and more frequent use).

What's the usual or average difference? 1/2 mm? Less?

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

....But exactly how much more spin is created by a tiny 1mm hit difference on the cb? I'm sure there's an equation for that in Dr. Dave's material.
...

I think the difference for most tip variations -- within the normal range that players use -- will be much less than 1mm. The spin is more or less directly proportional to offset.

 

[BC21]

And remember that's the maximum difference between a nickel and dime shape (at maximum tip offset) - how often do we use maximum spin? Less tip offset = less difference (and more frequent use).

What's the usual or average difference? 1/2 mm? Less?

pj
chgo

I used a friend's 11.8mm carbon fiber shaft once to see what the hype was about. I shot a spot shot with extreme low outside spin and drew the cb 3 rails around the table (Diamond bar box). I couldn’t/can't hit the shot that strong with my regular Mezz LD shaft. I thought it was tip-related, but I guess those carbon fibers just transfer more energy??

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I used a friend's 11.8mm carbon fiber shaft once to see what the hype was about. I shot a spot shot with extreme low outside spin and drew the cb 3 rails around the table (Diamond bar box). I couldn’t/can't hit the shot that strong with my regular Mezz LD shaft. I thought it was tip-related, but I guess those carbon fibers just transfer more energy??

My guess is that for that one shot your stroke was that far off.

Try the same thing many times, alternating sticks/tips each shot.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

My guess is that for that one shot your stroke was that far off.

Try the same thing many times, alternating sticks/tips each shot.

pj
chgo

I shot it several times, trying to draw the cb all the way around the table and back to the foot end. Every shot landed short, but they were pretty consistent. When I tried it with my cue, using what felt like the same speed and stroke, I was only able to draw from the side rail to the end rail (2 rails). I tried several times, failed to get that 3rd rail every time. Then I used my buddy's cue again and was able to get 3 rails.

Could've been a harder tip on his cue, and that would maybe give the cb a little more action when compared to using a soft tip at the same speed. I thought it was awesome, but not enough to make me switch to carbon fiber.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...a 1mm difference on the hit is about a 7% difference. Not sure how much more spin would be created if the tip hit the cb an additional 7% away from center. Somebody do the math please. Lol

I think the difference for most tip variations -- within the normal range that players use -- will be much less than 1mm. The spin is more or less directly proportional to offset.

So maximum 7% difference in spin. Average difference = half that (or less)?

And the same differences in squirt, right?

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

So maximum 7% difference in spin. Average difference = half that (or less)?

And the same differences in squirt, right?

pj
chgo

Miss-hitting left or right of the vertical axis on the cb by less than 1mm won't cause significant error on most shots. So it's probably safe to say that a difference in applied english of 1mm or less would also not cause significant error on most shots. And that's a good goal - to be able to strike the cb within 1mm of where you intend to strike it.

 

[phreaticus]

So maximum 7% difference in spin. Average difference = half that (or less)?

And the same differences in squirt, right?

pj
chgo

I think you guys are smart dudes, but with all due respect I think you are missing some big pieces. So, "on average” 4-7% is not much… really? 87 octane fuel vs 91? 105 deg body temp vs 98.6? 11.8 vs 12.5 mm diameter shafts don’t matter? 76 (medium) durometer tip vs 72 (soft) hardness ratings?

Here’s my thoughts (might be too nerdy for general consumption, but you last few commenters all seem of the nerdy variety)

• Draw has more total angle than sidespin & top. Most people use draw often, vs max case sidespin. Most miscues happen on max draw, not max follow or side. In the real world, some form of draw shot, low on the vertical axis are what most players mean by “juicing” the ball. In the vertical plane, aside from aiming very low (off axis) on the CB to generate the spin, draw shots will always have an additional, non co-linear (to the spin angle) downward angle, as our cues are never perfectly level with the slate. In the 2D drawings that Pat posts every week for the last 20 years, the balls are illustrated in the horizontal plane with the cue perfectly parallel to the centerline of ball & the slate.
• Obviously, spin is often imparted with the tip impacting the outer edge of the ball in both the X & Y planes, relative to the table surface, ie a low left draw shot. There are squirt/swerve issues in both planes… In reality, the stroke is a vector field defined in cylindrical coordinates (ρ, φ, z) in XYZ space which we define as 3D. Spherical geometry is complex!
• An additional issue is that it's almost impossible to separate multiple tip characteristics. The cues/tips we often experiment with will have multiple minor variances; tip shape, hardness, diameter, shaft diameter, taper, stiffness… these may have a cumulative effect, cancelling effect, or some unique blend. CF shafts tend to be thinner & stiffer & use softer tips. Comparing a 12.4 mm CF 15” pro taper LD shaft w/soft tip & dime shape vs a conical 13mm house cue with a hard nickel shaped tip is going to have a lot going on, mostly cumulative with respect to spin & deflection. That might feel like 15% difference. Is that a lot?
• Finally, there is a lot of variance in stroke & playing style. BHE, FHE, brushing vs jabbing, long follow through vs punchy, etc, etc. I'm generally a minimalist on spin, but most of my shots seem to use the edge of the tip. When I'm lazy with the chalk and have an occasional miscue, when I look at the tip, the naked "offender" spot is always right on the very corner - precisely the spot in question where these dime/nickel variations are said to not matter much. When chalking a tip properly, most of us brush the crown edges very carefully, no? The point being that many, if not the majority of pool shots actually use the edge of the tip, even though most of us are not using anywhere near maximum sidespin, as depicted by Patricks drawings.
• In any case, I think if nearly any player with even moderate experience - takes 2 copies of the same shaft, w/same exact brand/type tip to compare purely dime vs nickel radius only - does 10 minutes of full table draw shot drills with each, one will feel & observe a difference in results. Do it & honestly report back!

Note, I’m not advocating that one shape is better than the other, or that people can't rapidly adjust among these minor variations; I do, I bounce among custom cues, CF vs maple shafts, and house cues every week. But that doesn't negate the fact that these minor tip characteristics can have reasonable distinctions in feel & performance, and players will likely develop a preference, particularly if they are serious about building consistency. Ultimately this is a game of feel, and small differences can indeed have a noticeable effect. I find it odd that any seasoned pool player would scoff at these concepts.

Cheers

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Miss-hitting left or right of the vertical axis on the cb by less than 1mm won't cause significant error on most shots.

Or left/right of any intended contact point.

...that's a good a goal - to be able to strike the cb within 1mm of where you intend to strike it.

Good goal indeed - with a 10-inch bridge that gives you only about 4mm (slightly more than 1/8") of wiggle room at the bridge hand.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

....
Here’s my thoughts (might be too nerdy for general consumption, but you last few commenters all seem of the nerdy variety)

......

Cheers

Good post, but I cut out the good stuff because I have to clap for this! I am still laughing my ass off! You're funny.