My drawing (and simple geometry) shows that tip offsets less than maximum don't hit nickel or dime shaped tips anywhere near their edge.
pj
chgo
Tip shape
- Thread starter dquarasr
- Start date
pj
chgo
CB contact point or OB?
Being off by 1mm on the ob contact point is a 2° change in shot angle. Being off 1mm using fractional aiming is a 1° change in shot angle (for shots around 30° or thicker).
So if you're going to be off by 1mm on the ob contact point, the ob better be 3ft or less from the pocket or it might not go in. Fractional aimers can be off by a couple of millimeters and achieve the same accuracy from that distance. I never really thought much about it until a few months ago, but it's an interesting comparison.
My bad. You right. Now let's all go play some pool! Peace out.
phreaticus
Well-known member
Exactly. Its Fri, off to the beach with dog & cue!
phreaticus
Well-known member
Thx, but looks aren’t everything!Good post, but I cut out the good stuff because I have to clap for this! I am still laughing my ass off!You're funny.
The tip on the left has a nice nickel radius and a good shoulder
The tip on the right has the same nickel radius on the top 2/3 of the radius above the “shoulder”….then it dives down the last 1/3 of the arc and rolls the radius OVER the shoulder….
The smaller the radius the more important it is to have a nicely defined square shoulder that the radius meets…..
It’s radius is overdone and presents the illusion that there’s more strikeable surface to the tip than there really is.
If a tip has a square shoulder meeting the radius then the ball can be struck cleaner as close as is possible to the shoulder on the extremes of the radius and the shoulder will support the tip deformation from impact better without slipping off the ball….this also occurs since visually we have a more defined edge of the tips surface.
When it’s rounded and rolled over the shoulder there is no defined edge of the radius surface, so there’s less visual cue for our eyes to lock onto, and there’s also near ZERO support from deformation and slippage for the tip during impact.
I’ve always believed This plays into why some may have noticed a large number of higher caliber players prefer a tip “cut down” and having a shorter shoulder instead of a very tall one. More edge support, plays more consistent and it’s easier to maintain that square shoulder to the radius edge without rolling the radius over and turning the front of the tips shape nearly into half of a ball.
In my opinion Tall tips are for players who can’t stop dicking around with their tip surface, so they get enough filing/sanding time for their moneys worth. Lol
Square them shoulders son…slouching is bad for ya!
Wow. How clever you are. And witty, too! Let me tell you something, sonny boy.....
There's a whole lot of room between the extremes you described. I'm no slouch --- My high run in 9 ball is 6 racks. I enjoy playing with a tip the most when it's just new on the cue --- and you guessed it, on the high side, and plenty rounded. Yes, I do like an edge to it and it requires some regular maintenance to maintain it, not because I enjoy "dicking around" with it, but because it gives me what I want when the specs are the way I like them. Some of us happen to be more specific in what we like than others like yourself.
In fact, every time I changed tips, I nearly always said to myself, "I should've changed it sooner." Why? Because I recalled how great the hit was and how responsive it was when it was new.
I don't mind people stating their opinion. That's what we're here for. But stay away from putting people in categories like cattle. And in particular, it's unhealthy to think that everyone who doesn't think like you is inferior.
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I was surprised to see the diagrams of tip contact differences being as small as 4-7% because anecdotally, tip size/shape make a huge diff in my experience. All the conventional knowledge of big tip, less curve is more forgiving and smaller, rounder tip juices the ball more but produces more errors held true for me. When I returned to the game after over a decade absence, I couldn't game my fave 11.5mm dime tip and had to play a 12.7 nickel at first, then a 12.2 dime, before finally being precise enough to play the 11.5 dime. Amount of spin went up and PERCEIVED chance of miscue went down. I have no evidence to back up that I miscue more with nickel shaped cues but sure seems that way in my mind.
Since it’s not really tip shape making the differences, what do you suppose it could be? The answer to that is your next improvement goal.
pj
chgo
he might have to change his screen name......
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I guess the diameter of the tips matter more than the shape. That would be my guess. As far as improvement goals go...I've gotten my stroke to a high level of consistency (despite the vertical wobble) so the areas I can improve in most are tactics and safety play. Anyone can get out on open racks, but how you manage your way through the tricky tied up ones makes a big difference between all the guys that beat the ghost with ball in hand.
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All that and the only thing you focus on is the friendly jab at tip picking shaping filing hypochondriacs…..and no where did I say anyone was inferior.
So listen up little lady….and I’m only gonna say this once.
What kinda tip you like ima send you a box of em for Christmas
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Perhaps I get closer to max offset with the smaller tip bc the bigger one just looks more extreme when hitting same spot on CB.
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Yep. I believe that extra 4 to 7% is very noticeable to experienced players. I can definitely notice more spin when I use an 11.8mm shaft, compared to 13mm.
For me (and probably most players), I don't focus on exactly where my tip will literally make contact with the cb. I aim the center of my tip/shaft to a point on the cb that results in the amount of spin I want.
When you play with the same cue long enough, the mind learns where you need to aim for whatever spin you want or need, including what you believe is maximum spin. So when you pick up a cue with a tip/shaft that's a millimeter or two thinner than yours (which likely has a dime shaped tip vs nickel) you are going to automatically be hitting a touch more spin because your mind will be aiming the center of the tip/shaft as usual, but the actual contact point on the cb will be a little farther from ccb, generating a little more spin than usual.
Inexperienced players would likely not notice or feel the difference in the increased spin. But I believe an experienced player can definitely notice the difference, even if it's just a 4 to 7% difference.
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Sure, I read your entire post. It was your reasoning for saying, "In my opinion Tall tips are for players who can’t stop dicking around with their tip surface, so they get enough filing/sanding time for their moneys worth. Lol"All that and the only thing you focus on is the friendly jab at tip picking shaping filing hypochondriacs…..and no where did I say anyone was inferior.
So listen up little lady….and I’m only gonna say this once.
What kinda tip you like ima send you a box of em for Christmas
One box of tips won't do. That's a pretty cheap offer by you. I buy 200 boxes at a time --- you know --- with all the filing/sanding and dicking around that I do. Need to change them every 2 or 3 days.
I don't trust my guesstimates from eyeballing the gaps, so I did the math.
FYI, here are the actual differences - the percentage differences are the same at 1/3, 2/3 and max spin (5.77%), but of course smaller actual differences at smaller offsets. I have a hard time believing such small actual differences (about 1/4mm, 1/2mm and 3/4mm - equivalent to backhand imprecision of 1-3mm) make significant differences in outcome or are noticeable to even good players.
pj
chgo
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Buying in bulk….it’s the boomer way!
…now I know your pulling my leg about all the sanding filing and dicking around that you do!
Fran….the comment wasn’t a sleight against the uncircumcised tip…it’s totally natural and no one should feel bad for liking them exactly how the good lord made them.
The natural length was the lead up to the sleight against players that CANT STOP WONT STOP scuffing, sanding, tip picking and utterly dicking around with their tips surface.
We both know when miscues happen of course that often can cause some glazing or even deformation or damage that needs restitution.
We also both know always playing around with the tip surface with a half dozen dodads some feel they just gotta carry….has ZERO benefit to playability of the tip and everything to do with lower skill level and lack of actual knowledge in regards to the tip surface and the same lack of information in regards to the stroke, accuracy of lack their of….lacking info in many areas…..they don’t understand it’s THEM and feel it’s an issue with the tip….they carry a large load of ignorance, and heartily employ their scheduled pit stops with intense focus….and trudge on with this futile “maintenance”.
Some of them some day eventually learn and are set free of this Sisyphus like pushing of the boulder up the hill.
You put your own yarn to that sentence and even went so far as to try and put words in my mouth that were your own interpretation….because you like tall tips….but you dam well don’t like the other and felt some desire to defend yourself and the tips.
They do need defending…from those people, because they really need to get their moneys worth.
I am a clever boy and for a clever girl I’m surprised you bit so hard on the tip issue when I honestly didn’t say anything bad about leaving them high earlier in the post, I merely mentioned how many good players like a shorter tip and listed some of the benefits to that.
But I’m glad we can now add tip height to the list of things to be socially conscientious about.
Stay woken, keep strokin!
-Greyghost
phreaticus
Well-known member
Interestingly, 5.8% offset difference equates to almost exactly 10% of the diameter of a pool ball. Joe Tucker’s aiming system uses about 18 aimpoints; so if one were using his system, this “negligible” dime/nickel difference at max spin would require shifting the stroke by almost 2 full discreet aim lines.
More fun; a nickel size sphere has about 40% more surface area than a dime sized sphere.
Patrick, forgetting the 3D & attack angle issues between top, side & draw (vs offsets) that I pointed out a while back (that you chose not to respond to), I think if one wanted to truly better analyze the difference in effect between tip shapes, you would have to compare the surface areas of the intersection of the two spheres (tip & CB). Ie how big the surface contact area is between when a dime tip connects to the CB, vs the size of surface contact area between a nickel tip & the CB. The math is not simple & takes you into Hertzian contact mechanics. There are formulas and probably some Matlab code snippets out there, but too much for me.
The more simple, real world answer comes from simply doing the drill I suggested a few posts ago. It might help with your ”difficulty believing”…
Cheers
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