Tips for Students of CTE

[stan shuffett]

What does it mean to say a shot "is center to edge"?

On his DVD Stan says the same thing AtLarge did: "the CTE visual is off the OB" for thin cuts. In fact, he says that's the reason for using the 1/8 aim point. So once again, how can a "CTE visual" be "off the OB"? You can choose to use it or not, but it's never "off the OB" - unless "CTE visual" means something other than "CTE line". Does it mean something different for every shot?


pj
chgo

A center to edge shot is any shot that is made using a CTE visual with an appropriate OB aim point of A,B or C,B. These visuals work up to and including thin shots.

Thin cuts become "very thin" when an aim point of B on the OB will not make the shot with a very strict 1/2 tip pivot. At the point that B does not work for a left or right cut in CTE/PRO ONE , instructions are to go straight to the 1/8 overlap visual where there is no CTE visual. Again, this is an adjustment to CTE.

Stan

 

[AtLarge]

What does it mean to say a shot "is center to edge"?

On his DVD Stan says the same thing AtLarge did: "the CTE visual is off the OB" for thin cuts. In fact, he says that's the reason for using the 1/8 aim point. So once again, how can a "CTE visual" be "off the OB"? You can choose to use it or not, but it's never "off the OB" - unless "CTE visual" means something other than "CTE line". Does it mean something different for every shot?


You tried to be a dick (successfully) and then tried to answer (unsuccessfully).

pj
chgo

I agree that neither my language in the post you refer to, nor Stan's similar language in the DVD, was precise enough for some readers/listeners. I'll try again.

For very thin cuts, one simply aligns the 1/8th point on the inside of the CB with the 1/8th point on the outside of the OB, offsets the stick 1/2-tip either inside or outside as the shot requires, pivots to center CB, and shoots.

These shots require only a single visual (1/8 to 1/8), not two. As such, these are not "center-to-edge" shots, as there is no CTE visual used for them, i.e., no CTEL. My interpretation for the reason for this is that the 1/8 point and the OB edge are so close together that if you align visually on 1/8 to 1/8, you can't simultaneously see a line from CB center to OB edge. [Of course, on paper you could draw the two lines.]

I try not to be unclear or ambiguous. Any time I am, just ask.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I agree that neither my language in the post you refer to, nor Stan's similar language in the DVD, was precise enough for some readers/listeners. I'll try again.

For very thin cuts, one simply aligns the 1/8th point on the inside of the CB with the 1/8th point on the outside of the OB, offsets the stick 1/2-tip either inside or outside as the shot requires, pivots to center CB, and shoots.

These shots require only a single visual (1/8 to 1/8), not two. As such, these are not "center-to-edge" shots, as there is no CTE visual used for them, i.e., no CTEL. My interpretation for the reason for this is that the 1/8 point and the OB edge are so close together that if you align visually on 1/8 to 1/8, you can't simultaneously see a line from CB center to OB edge. [Of course, on paper you could draw the two lines.]

I try not to be unclear or ambiguous. Any time I am, just ask.

Thanks for the clarification. But it raises another question:

Since only the 1/8-1/8 line is used for this shot (no CTE line), and since the 1/8-1/8 line is parallel to the edge-C line (and presumably would result in seeing the same CB center), why switch to the 1/8-1/8 line?

pj
chgo

 

[LAMas]

Thanks for the clarification. But it raises another question:

Since only the 1/8-1/8 line is used for this shot (no CTE line), and since the 1/8-1/8 line is parallel to the edge-C line (and presumably would result in seeing the same CB center), why switch to the 1/8-1/8 line?

pj
chgo

Perhaps not since the CB appears to be larger than the small OB down table, the 1/8 distance on the CB to it's edge is larger than the smaller appearing OB distance from it's 1/8 to "C".:thumbup:

This implys that one has to rotate his body about the CB a fraction more when moving to sight the edge of the CB to "C" than for 1/8 to 1/8.

Now where's that cold one.

 

[stan shuffett]

I agree that neither my language in the post you refer to, nor Stan's similar language in the DVD, was precise enough for some readers/listeners. I'll try again.

For very thin cuts, one simply aligns the 1/8th point on the inside of the CB with the 1/8th point on the outside of the OB, offsets the stick 1/2-tip either inside or outside as the shot requires, pivots to center CB, and shoots.

These shots require only a single visual (1/8 to 1/8), not two. As such, these are not "center-to-edge" shots, as there is no CTE visual used for them, i.e., no CTEL. My interpretation for the reason for this is that the 1/8 point and the OB edge are so close together that if you align visually on 1/8 to 1/8, you can't simultaneously see a line from CB center to OB edge. [Of course, on paper you could draw the two lines.]

I try not to be unclear or ambiguous. Any time I am, just ask.

AtLarge,

The 1/8 CB/OB ball overlap is simple. 12.5% of the CB overlaps 12.5% of the OB.

Another way to put it is like this: For a very thin left cut, the left edge of a CB would be aimed at the 1/8 point of an OB. This will produce the 1/8 visual overlap.

Stan

 

[AtLarge]

AtLarge,

The 1/8 CB/OB ball overlap is simple. 12.5% of the CB overlaps 12.5% of the OB.

Another way to put it is like this: For a very thin left cut, the left edge of a CB would be aimed at the 1/8 point of an OB. This will produce the 1/8 visual overlap.

Stan

Ah ha! So what daphish1 drew in post 111 is correct. I thought one was supposed to aim the 1/8 point at the 1/8 point, which, clearly, is not really overlapping 1/8 of each ball (and was giving me trouble in trying to make extremely thin cuts). I think that makes Dr. Dave's summary incorrect in this regard as well.

Thank you, Stan.

 

[stan shuffett]

Ah ha! So what daphish1 drew in post 111 is correct. I thought one was supposed to aim the 1/8 point at the 1/8 point, which, clearly, is not really overlapping 1/8 of each ball (and was giving me trouble in trying to make extremely thin cuts). I think that makes Dr. Dave's summary incorrect in this regard as well.

Thank you, Stan.

You are welcome, AtLarge.

Thanks for starting this thread. I appreciate very much what you had to say in your initial post.

Stan

 

[champ2107]

That 111 post looks wrong to me? is it not a 1/8 kitty corner visual?

 

[scottjen26]

Yea, the 1/8 thing got me as well.

AtLarge, I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, which would be the same as C or 1/4 ball overlap. I was not as successful on these really thin shots so I figured I was doing it wrong. Emailed Stan to be sure, and he set me straight (as above), that it's really a 1/8 or 12.5% overlap. In practice, I find it easier to visualize the line of the 1/8 spot on the cue ball pointing at the edge of the OB, that seems to set up the correct initial thickness, not sure if this changes the visuals slightly versus a true overlap but seems to work.

I'm much more successful now on very thin shots. I can set up what looks like a dead bank in the side with the OB 1 or 2 balls off the rail and cut it up in the far corner using the 1/8 overlap probably 6 or 7 out of 10 times, and the times I miss it's just barely. Certainly better than I would have done by guessing before. I've also set up some pretty long, thin cuts down the length of the table and even with the distance and preciseness needed I'm making 3 or 4 out of 10 of these impossible looking cuts. Certainly helps to have a frame of reference instead of just imagining hitting the ball ultra thin. Hitting center ball instead of trying to use outside to spin it or inside to allow deflection to help with a thinner hit helps with the consistency as well.


As to the other poster with the diagrams of gradually changing shots in a line or arc around a constant object ball - I did something similar, posted it in one of these threads… For me, exercises like that helped me firm up when to transition from one aim point or pivot to another, and also reaffirmed that the various lines and pivots were indeed working to make the object ball. I also used the Cuetable Aim calculator to approximate the angles, although in practice I find that the specific angle of the shot is not necessarily a definitive line that tells you when to change pivots or aim points and it can be somewhat dependent on the visual angle instead.

Scott

 

[LAMas]

Yea, the 1/8 thing got me as well.

AtLarge, I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, which would be the same as C or 1/4 ball overlap. I was not as successful on these really thin shots so I figured I was doing it wrong. Emailed Stan to be sure, and he set me straight (as above), that it's really a 1/8 or 12.5% overlap. In practice, I find it easier to visualize the line of the 1/8 spot on the cue ball pointing at the edge of the OB, that seems to set up the correct initial thickness, not sure if this changes the visuals slightly versus a true overlap but seems to work.

I'm much more successful now on very thin shots. I can set up what looks like a dead bank in the side with the OB 1 or 2 balls off the rail and cut it up in the far corner using the 1/8 overlap probably 6 or 7 out of 10 times, and the times I miss it's just barely. Certainly better than I would have done by guessing before. I've also set up some pretty long, thin cuts down the length of the table and even with the distance and preciseness needed I'm making 3 or 4 out of 10 of these impossible looking cuts. Certainly helps to have a frame of reference instead of just imagining hitting the ball ultra thin. Hitting center ball instead of trying to use outside to spin it or inside to allow deflection to help with a thinner hit helps with the consistency as well.


As to the other poster with the diagrams of gradually changing shots in a line or arc around a constant object ball - I did something similar, posted it in one of these threads… For me, exercises like that helped me firm up when to transition from one aim point or pivot to another, and also reaffirmed that the various lines and pivots were indeed working to make the object ball. I also used the Cuetable Aim calculator to approximate the angles, although in practice I find that the specific angle of the shot is not necessarily a definitive line that tells you when to change pivots or aim points and it can be somewhat dependent on the visual angle instead.

Scott

Scott,
I quote you:
"I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, which would be the same as C or 1/4 ball overlap."

More than that, aiming 1/8 CB to 1/8 OB (with no edge of the CB involved)would be the same as contact point to contact point aiming and if you can do that then CPTCP aiming is more parsimonious.

The Cue Table Aim Calculator does not account for cut induced throw (CIT) and you will undercut most shots especially if stun is involved.

Thanks.

 

[mohrt]

If you're on a PC, hit the PrintScreen key (usually abbreviated as "Prt Scr"), which copies an image of what's on your screen onto your Windows Clipboard. Then open the Paint program that comes with Windows and Paste the image into that program. Then you can print it, save it, etc.

pj
chgo

If you are on a mac, shift-command-4 will give you a sight-scope looking cursor. Then click-drag a rectangle around what you want to snapshot (the table) and it will save the image to your desktop.

 

[AtLarge]

Yea, the 1/8 thing got me as well.

AtLarge, I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, ...

I'm much more successful now on very thin shots. ...

I find that the specific angle of the shot is not necessarily a definitive line that tells you when to change pivots or aim points and it can be somewhat dependent on the visual angle instead.

Scott

Scott, sorry for misleading you. So it's inside CB edge to outside OB 1/8 (or, perhaps pretty much the same thing, inside CB 1/8 to outside OB edge). I hope Dr. Dave reads these posts today and revises his summary tables, so other readers are not also misled. Maybe now I'll quit undercutting the real thin cuts so often when I try them with Stan's CTE.

And I agree with you that determining when to shift from one alignment-menu option to another seems not to be driven purely by cut angle. CB-OB distance may be a factor as well. I need a lot more experience-driven knowledge regarding eye position to make the method work better for me.

 

[AtLarge]

... aiming 1/8 CB to 1/8 OB (with no edge of the CB involved)would be the same as contact point to contact point aiming and if you can do that then CPTCP aiming is more parsimonious.

The Cue Table Aim Calculator does not account for cut induced throw (CIT) and you will undercut most shots especially if stun is involved.

Thanks.

A pivot is (or was) used, so it is (or was) still a bit different from CP to CP.

I agree regarding the Calculator; it is giving the cut angles needed assuming no CIT and no spin on the CB.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[LAMas]

A pivot is (or was) used, so it is (or was) still a bit different from CP to CP.

I agree regarding the Calculator; it is giving the cut angles needed assuming no CIT and no spin on the CB.

I concur for with the "air pivot", the 1\2 tip lateral shift from center and left or right pivot aren't required (I read), but few here are posting about the "air pivot" which looks like CPTCP.

Thanks.

 

[AtLarge]

Stan has said that his system works best at about two feet apart and more. I have found that for balls about a foot apart or so, I can get the same results using a full tip of pivot rather than a half tip.

Now, I'm NOT saying it will work on all close shots. I haven't tested it that much. This is just a tip for those that are actually using it. It works for me, and might for you too.

Neil, it sounds like you are keeping your bridge length the same for the close shots and altering the size of the offset.

Stan, on the other hand, keeps the offset constant at 1/2-tip, and alters the bridge length, getting quite short for small CB-OB distances.

 

[stan shuffett]

Neil, I misled you if I indicated the system is best at 2 feet and beyond. I play lots of 14.1 and 1 pocket and I see no limits with distance until the cb/OB become extremely close together, perhaps the distance of a cube of chalk. The 1/2 tip pivot is effective for short as well as long distances.

Stan

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[dr_dave]

The 1/8 CB/OB ball overlap is simple. 12.5% of the CB overlaps 12.5% of the OB.

Another way to put it is like this: For a very thin left cut, the left edge of a CB would be aimed at the 1/8 point of an OB. This will produce the 1/8 visual overlap.

I thought one was supposed to aim the 1/8 point at the 1/8 point, which, clearly, is not really overlapping 1/8 of each ball (and was giving me trouble in trying to make extremely thin cuts). I think that makes Dr. Dave's summary incorrect in this regard as well.

AtLarge,

Thank you for helping to clarify things with Stan. I did not interpret it this way from the DVD in my early viewings, but I plan to watch the DVD again with this in mind.

FYI, I've revised the summary of Stan's version of CTE on the website. I think it is now in line with Stan's clarifications.

AtLarge, Stan, or others familiar with CTE, please read through the revised version and let me know if you have any additional corrections or suggestions for further improvement (dealing with any aspect of the summary).

Regards,
Dave

 

[stan shuffett]

I keep my bridge length/pivot distance the same. Do you? Or do you recommend a different bridge length? I can't remember right now, and can't go back through the DVD for a while.

Neil,


In manual CTE, the bridge distance must vary for the strict 1/2 tip pivot as the chart indicates.

In PRO ONE, I do not limit myself to specific bridge distances, but for short type shots, I typically use shorter bridge lengths.

Stan