To all maker's of cues-> Question

[Bavafongoul]

Here's how I see things.........

I don't do air conditioning repairs and so when my home unit breaks, I pay a technician an hourly rate plus repair parts costs that is marked up, The hourly rate the technician gets may be $18 hour, doesn't matter, but he's not paid the $75/hr rate I get billed by his company. My car has a problem and I do not perform car repairs.........same thing, I pay the hourly rate. One artist spends 25 hours painting with oil paints and a canvas and draws a scenic mountain setting. Another different artist spends 14 hours painting the same scene and then both paintings go on display. One painting sells for $500 (25 hrs) at a art auction and the other painting (14 hrs) for $1500 in a different art auction. There's no correlation between the prices of either painting and the number of hours it took to produce either painting. The market determines how much either painting is worth.

I cannot repair air conditioners or my automobile so I pay someone a hourly rate to do that task for me and I do not begrudge them what they charge. And if it's too much, I look for a different company.........is it any different when it comes to pool cues? I do not know how to build a pool cue......same thing as repair my car or a/c......so I hire someone that has that knowledge and skills. I search for a cue-maker with a good reputation, established track record of years in business, examine samples of the cue-maker's workmanship, and evaluate the cue-maker's demeanor. I mean cue-makers invariably have to deal with many types of clients and some are going to jerks but that goes hand in hand with being a cue-maker and dealing with the public. But I don't have to deal with a cue-maker that's a jerk and so the cue-maker really needs me more than I need a particular cue-maker.......I have more options than the cue-maker since there's 17 cue-makers I'd be pleased to own..........I have more choices than the cue-maker does.

So why does on cue-maker charge more than another. First is the appearance and beauty of what they produce, i.e., cue's design. The meticulous attention required to fabricate wood that comes together with intricate designs and patterns that highlight the finished product, i.e., pool cue. Second is the quality of the materials used and the selection of different types and grades of wood. Third is the cue-maker's commitment to the cue design and not being willing to settle for something less and willingness to start over and do it again if it's not right. I once heard the phrase....."that guy is so talented that he could take chicken shit and turn it into chicken salad.".......well, maybe there are cue-makers like that....make a mistake in the design and they can recover and still make it work. Well, even if someone was talented enough to turn chicken shit into chicken salad, I still wouldn't want to eat a sandwich made out if it. The same goes for my cue-maker, if he doesn't get the design right and something along the way in fabricating the cue changes the original design, I want my cue-maker to toss the cue aside and start over delivering the original cue design, not something different. The commitment and demeanor of the cue-maker is very important.

Lastly, reputation........one can spend a lifetime building a good one and in a year, ruin decades of good will. I have a cue being built right now and it's not an easy build. The cue-maker didn't get to pick anything but the wood for the cue. I drew the design from the tip to the cue butt and everything in between. I interviewed a few cue-makers and I picked the cue-maker that was interested in tackling my build and expressed confidence in meeting my specs which are very tight. The cue-maker I picked was the only one that offered suggestions for improving my design.....he seems committed to making my cue the best it can be.

I do not know how much profit my cue-maker will ultimately make on my cue and I really do not care since that's none of my business. What I know is that he quoted me a price that was consistent with the secondary marketplace for similar designed cues and he has the skills to build it.....not any different than if I had to have my car repaired since I do not have those skills and I sure can't build a pool cue either. I hire someone to do what I can't because if I could it myself, I would do so.

 

[danieldakota53]

Everyone is different. I doubt many people throw down thousands of dollars for a top name cue just on impulse very often. But people very often do that on cheaper stuff.
So who knows why someone buys?

:deadhorse:

Thank you and Mr. Barringer for the great input. And no way do I think this is a beating of a dead horse. Taboo subject yes, but not that. You two gentleman are knowledgeable, and I am glad you shared. Especially you Joe,very insightful,bold,and to the point.
It all comes down to,as Joe said, time spentmoney spent, and spending it wisely. If you have your business plan in line, all of your checks and balances in place, there is money to be made. And I believe this is why makers of the same talents and quality show different financial results. The maker who is organized and plans, makes the money.The maker who does not, struggles.
Thank you.

 

[danieldakota53]

Also, thanks to you Bavafongoul for your wonderful insight as well.

 

[Mcues]

Thank you and Mr. Barringer for the great input. And no way do I think this is a beating of a dead horse. Taboo subject yes, but not that. You two gentleman are knowledgeable, and I am glad you shared. Especially you Joe,very insightful,bold,and to the point.
It all comes down to,as Joe said, time spentmoney spent, and spending it wisely. If you have your business plan in line, all of your checks and balances in place, there is money to be made. And I believe this is why makers of the same talents and quality show different financial results. The maker who is organized and plans, makes the money.The maker who does not, struggles.
Thank you.

I have a question for you. Which maker are you most likely to buy from?

Mario

 

[danieldakota53]

I have a question for you. Which maker are you most likely to buy from?

Mario

Although I have varied tastes , I have a couple friends that build,not well known, that I shoot with their cues out of respect, and well, they play good. On this forum I see many cues and styles I like, some I do not. But I like BHQ, Chris Nitti,Sugar tree due to his wood choices, and as far as way out there cues, I like Bob Manzino for his style and unique design quality.
And yourself?

 

[Mcues]

Thank you and Mr. Barringer for the great input. And no way do I think this is a beating of a dead horse. Taboo subject yes, but not that. You two gentleman are knowledgeable, and I am glad you shared. Especially you Joe,very insightful,bold,and to the point.
It all comes down to,as Joe said, time spentmoney spent, and spending it wisely. If you have your business plan in line, all of your checks and balances in place, there is money to be made. And I believe this is why makers of the same talents and quality show different financial results. The maker who is organized and plans, makes the money.The maker who does not, struggles.
Thank you.

The question is, which maker out the two mentioned above are you most likely to buy from?
Sorry if I was not clear Normally if you are quoting then it has to do with what's quoted.
Last thing I wanted was names. Thanks for answering.

Mario

 

[shakes]

In another thread I posted some thoughts on an issue, here is my question to all who build cues. Once you learn the basics of cue making, and I mean learn it, basic true fit,flat facing, no glue filling voids cue making, what makes one cue any different from another, maker to maker, taking out fancy inlays, jewelry so to speak, or fancy rings? Solid is solid correct? Besides the sales pitches of special technics,original fancy ring work, NAME(kind of like nike versus no name brand-> not known) what truly makes one cue better than another at this level? I know this will ignite all kinds of theories and comments, but I have wondered for years, what makes your cue better in playability and functionality than any of your competition? If you take all the fancy stuff out, which I know many maker's can't/won't do, what makes a cue better from a to brand z?

I'm quoting your original post so that I try not to get sidetracked. I'm working on being a cuemaker, so I hope to give you some of my thoughts on an interesting question, and something that all aspiring cue makers should ponder, in my opinion. If my credentials are not up to par, please forgive me.

First, you mention learning the basics of cue making. There are different ways of doing this. I'm learning as I go on my own using Chris Hightower's book, this forum, and a few tidbits that I've been able to coax from other cuemakers including the highlight so far, a day spent with Bill Schick in his shop along with Mike Wheeler, getting some great information. Contrast this learning style with Joel Hercek who learned from one of the masters as Burton Spain's mentee and friend for years before he passed away. Or Barry Szamboti who learned from Gus, I'm sure from early childhood, how to build cues in the Szamboti style. While I know the basics, and will continue to refine them over a period of time, it's like trying to learn Spanish in an American high school class versus growing up in Spain.

Second, while a cue in it's basic form is indeed not a mechanical mystery of how to build, there are a great many variables that will come up that a basic competency will not suffice. How do you make all of your cues hit with your signature style no matter what materials you use? Hercek's answer is to only build his cues with certain woods. Other's choose to core all of their cues so that they all have a particular base wood. Being able to try out someone's cue that has already been built before, and then knowing that when you commission a new cue, that it's going to feel the same way in your hand is a huge selling point. Repeatability of the feel is of great importance.

Again, while a 58" stick with one big end, and one small end with a leather tip isn't hard to make, there can and should be, in my opinion, a lot of science that goes into the cue. You'll find many threads on balance points of a cue. And occasionally in those discussions you'll find some gems on weight distribution in addition to that, because there is a big difference between a cue that has a natural weight distribution that gives you a balance point at 36" from the tip, and a cue that has a lead weight under the buttcap that gives another cue the same balance point. I am hoping to take that a step further from my research into swords as well.
Being able to pick out a piece of wood that has great tone vs another of the same species that feels dead and will give limited feedback when hitting the cueball, or having a reputation of only using woods with great figure.

Lastly, at least for now, customer service is important. Chris Hightower has an impeccable record for his customer service, and as a consumer I might be willing to pay more for the same cue from him than I would another cue maker who might be known for giving customers the run around and long wait times even though he doesn't have a waiting list. This is a great example of customer service as well:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=333525

Mr. Davis goes above and beyond to make sure that his customer is getting what he wants and will match his playing style the best. I don't know of any other cue makers who are doing this, and I've never been questioned like this when I have commissioned custom cues in the past. I would certainly be willing to pay more for this type of treatment.

I could probably name a few other things, but to summarize, in my opinion, there is a great deal of difference between someone who has gained competence in threading, splicing, gluing, facing, joining, and tapering versus a craftsman who is willing to throw out tens or hundreds of hours of work because he made a mistake in one small piece of execution that most likely no one would ever know of. Someone who is constantly looking for ways to improve his craft and be better tomorrow than he is today. A mechanic versus an artist.

 

[scdiveteam]

Shakes,

I like the way you think my friend.

Rick

 

[jburkm002]

Look at grocery carts some time. Why do you buy I certain cereal or toothpaste? What type of tennis shoe do you wear? Some will wear the cheapest shoe and some won't be seen in anything but Nike. What car do you drive and why? We often pay for an item based on the NAME. There is also a faction who know they can make their money by being cheaper than the name brands. Also and I may be wrong and I have stated this before. Before coming to AZ I had never heard of most of the cue makers. There may be millions of pool players but there is only a small faction that follow or cares about all the cue makers. So it takes more than you think to get your name out to everyone. I am sure there are people who pay $100 for one pair of underwear. There are others who pay $10 for 5 pair. It's about supply and demand.

 

[jburkm002]

I play in league and there are times 10 or more cues are lined up. I rarely pay attention to them or my opponents. From my experience of over 30 years. You usually don't know what cue someone is playing with unless they purposely point it out. On a rare and I mean rare occasion a cue will stand out from across the table and I will ask to take a closer look. I see so much detail put into custom cues but that's rarely noticed unless the cue is in your hands. Rarely do I see designs that really stand out that makes you want to take a closer look. I see high end cues with dark wood and dark inlays that you can't even see 6 feet away. So yeah I think in many cases your paying for a signature or stamp on a cue.

 

[danieldakota53]

Thank You, well thought out and presented jburkm002.

 

[danieldakota53]

Thank you shakes, very insightful comments.

 

[sengkun108]

i'm not a cuemaker.....but after a long read in this thread....i fully agree with a comment from qbuilder....

some cue is different one from another....and we players is the one who created the market price of the product.....lets take the example......A don't have any problem with his financial...and he is good and experience players .....he already try almost 150 cue from a different cuemaker in this world and he finally choose the southwest as his playing cue.....now the problem is the waiting time of soutwest is almost 12 years...so, what should he do....he asking around in the secondary market to get his southwest....he find B ( a cue dealer ) and asking the price....now B know exactly that many many players want to play with southwest and from his expereince he know that 4000 $ for a 4 point southwest will attract A to buy it....so that's how the price is settle....he pay 2000$ to cuemaker and sold to his buyer for 4000$...he got some 2000$ profit.... now the cuemaker know all of this bussiness and think....hey, i think if i raise the price to 3000 $ ...my cue dealer still can gain some profit....why don't i raise the price....., but when he/she raise the price to 3000$......B still can sell the cue for 5000$...and many of the players still buy the southwest cue...so the price is up and up and up....So,...the point is every cue has its price....some high and some lesser.....we the players who created them...