To all maker's of cues-> Question

[ridewiththewind]

Not
one bit. That up there in bold as you ask is what I do. How in the world did you take that as an ax to grind? I am very interested in the subject and wanted to hear what makers thought and there reasons or explanations of what they thought the reasons may be. And this is not nonsense , it's a very valid question.
And Lisa, I enjoyed your input very much on your last posting. Thank You for your insight and sharing.

Thanks....I think.

Those of us who have been here a while are kind of protective with regards to the cue makers forum, as so many have left. I find it to be a tremendous resource of information, and most often just read. There has been a time or two when I have become overly comfortable, and stepped in it...and I regret that, because if someone leaves as a result, it leaves a void.

The reason you are beginning to get the types of responses that you currently are, is because you are now approaching trolling territory...and there will be no tolerance for that in this area of AZB.

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[danieldakota53]

The reason you are beginning to get the types of responses that you currently are, is because you are now approaching trolling territory...and there will be no tolerance for that in this area of AZB.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Please explain the meaning of trolling territory to me. Very interesting.

 

[ridewiththewind]

No Lisa, I am not beating the drum here I don't think. I like to hear from other makers to here what they have to say, open mind if you will. I am not struggling with any of this, and I am not sure how you have a wonderful understanding of the subject that cue makers seem to not want to answer here. Some have even gotten upset. If they do not want to share their views, I understand. But I am sure I am not the only one who would like to hear the views and explain their thoughts on this matter. It could only help them in allowing people to understand their theories and building philosophies.

The reticence you are encountering is because this is not their first rodeo, with regards to this line of questioning...not by a long shot. It's gone sideways before, so no reason to think it couldn't go sideways again.

Reputations have been made, and broken here....some perhaps deservedly, others not so much. As a result, makers are pretty guarded these days.

They are generally more than happy to help out with construction, repair, machining and materials types of questions....but the money side of it is considered to be off limits.

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[danieldakota53]

In another thread I posted some thoughts on an issue, here is my question to all who build cues. Once you learn the basics of cue making, and I mean learn it, basic true fit,flat facing, no glue filling voids cue making, what makes one cue any different from another, maker to maker, taking out fancy inlays, jewelry so to speak, or fancy rings? Solid is solid correct? Besides the sales pitches of special technics,original fancy ring work, NAME(kind of like nike versus no name brand-> not known) what truly makes one cue better than another at this level? I know this will ignite all kinds of theories and comments, but I have wondered for years, what makes your cue better in playability and functionality than any of your competition? If you take all the fancy stuff out, which I know many maker's can't/won't do, what makes a cue better from a to brand z?

So far wood seasoning,tapers, pins,joints,supply and demand, have all been said. Any makers out there would like to expand on reasons why ? I reposted because I think the original thought had gotten lost.

 

[galipeau]

Trolling= Baiting people on online forums into an argument.

Trolling is not having a thoughtful discourse on a subject.

 

[danieldakota53]

The reticence you are encountering is because this is not their first rodeo, with regards to this line of questioning...not by a long shot. It's gone sideways before, so no reason to think it couldn't go sideways again.

Reputations have been made, and broken here....some perhaps deservedly, others not so much. As a result, makers are pretty guarded these days.

They are generally more than happy to help out with construction, repair, machining and materials types of questions....but the money side of it is considered to be off limits.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk

I have not been on this forum long as a member and understand some concerns you are sharing. But i think most just will not answer or do not know how to hide the facts. Others that share are open and have made great points as to their theories and explained well.
If you keep people in the dark, they will never see the light. So if this is kept under wraps and hush hush, its safer. It is not a bad question nor will it throw anyone into the fire.

 

[danieldakota53]

Trolling= Baiting people on online forums into an argument.

Trolling is not having a thoughtful discourse on a subject.

I am not baiting, actually just the opposite, inviting makers to share their views to help all understand.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Every maker has a philosophy of why and how they craft cues, who their target customer is, and pricing. Most do it for the love of it...as very very few, if any, are getting rich off of it. Those with the greater positive reputations, get more orders....more orders means less available cues in the pipeline, creating more demand....more demand equates to higher asking prices. It's more about supply and demand than anything else.

That just about says it all. Thanks Lisa.

I really don't know if he missed that or not.

Let's even make it easier.
Cue maker A is really good ( at least he and his friends think he is ) and he makes 10 cues to take to the show. Let's say they're 4 points with 3 veeneers and two shafts. Really sharp looking cues. Well done, nice shafts and perfectly made. He takes them to the show and none sell for the low price he is asking at $1000.
Cue maker B goes to the same show and takes 10 cues ( 4 points and 3 veneers cues ). Cue maker B is a hot maker. His cues are hyped-up as great playing cues and they hold their value well. They even appreciate in value.
He sold the cues at $1500 each.
What's the difference between the two cues ? Maybe NOTHING physically.
But, B sold out. On top of that, the cues he sent to BilliardWarehouse dot com, were snatched WITHIN HOURS of posting ( believe me it happens ).
Cry all you want. The people have spoken. They like B's cues.
Cue maker A shouldn't cry . He is now faced with the reality that his cues will not sell for $1000. Guess what ? He has to lower his price to get them moving. EVEN IF HE FEELS they are as good as SW or Lambros or Scruggs or Searing. It doesn't matter. He is not there yet.

And let's put an end to this hype thing.
There was a maker who had a beautiful website. He showed his cues, shop, and everything. He hyped up is cues. Sold them on Ebay on a shill-driven prices. He even sent paid shills here. Did the hype survive ? No. His cues did not bring the prices he wanted. In the end, his cues were no longer worth making. So he closed down the shop. He is now in some island in Asia believe. I believe he's in prison.


p.s.
Nobody knows everything about cue making. Something is learned from every maker.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I really don't know if he missed that or not.

Let's even make it easier.
Cue maker A is really good ( at least he and his friends think he is ) and he makes 10 cues to take to the show. Let's say they're 4 points with 3 veeneers and two shafts. Really sharp looking cues. Well done, nice shafts and perfectly made. He takes them to the show and none sell for the low price he is asking at $1000.
Cue maker B goes to the same show and takes 10 cues ( 4 points and 3 veneers cues ). Cue maker B is a hot maker. His cues are hyped-up as great playing cues and they hold their value well. They even appreciate in value.
He sold the cues at $1500 each.
What's the difference between the two cues ? Maybe NOTHING physically.
But, B sold out. On top of that, the cues he sent to BilliardWarehouse dot com, were snatched WITHIN HOURS of posting ( believe me it happens ).
Cry all you want. The people have spoken. They like B's cues.
Cue maker A shouldn't cry . He is now faced with the reality that his cues will not sell for $1000. Guess what ? He has to lower his price to get them moving. EVEN IF HE FEELS they are as good as SW or Lambros or Scruggs or Searing. It doesn't matter. He is not there yet.

And let's put an end to this hype thing.
There was a maker who had a beautiful website. He showed his cues, shop, and everything. He hyped up is cues. Sold them on Ebay on a shill-driven prices. He even sent paid shills here. Did the hype survive ? No. His cues did not bring the prices he wanted. In the end, his cues were no longer worth making. So he closed down the shop. He is now in some island in Asia I believe. I believe he's in prison.


p.s.
Nobody knows everything about cue making. Something is learned from every maker.

Not sure that it could be explained any clearer.

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[galipeau]

I never said you were trolling, even though it's what it seems like. I merely answered the questioned when you asked what trolling was.

Here's whats happening:

OP is asking, "hey guys, does anyone know what 2+2 is?"

And everyone here is shouting, "4, the answer is 4!!!"

OP, "Well, I'm merely asking people to share their opinions in the matter. 4 isn't the answer I'm looking for. Anyone else have an idea?"

Everyone here: "No really man, the answer is 4..."

OP, "I think this is a cover up."

That's what this discussion sounds like. There's a question, some answers and a bunch of red herring responses from the OP.

 

[danieldakota53]

This thread would be so much better if it were not non cue makers. I do value your thoughts, but the reasons behind this thread have been explained, the questions were very clear, and also explained many times.
So I will let you have your fun , trolling as you have called it, with each other. And the original question still stands for cue makers on this forum, for reference to that question, see post #1.

 

[cueman]

I have tried to keep the thread on topic. It is others off on tangents that are taking it that way. As I have reminded several times, if 2 cue makers are equal in talent and skill, what makes one demand more money than the other. Very simple question I thought.

Now that you have simplified your question. The simple asnwer is:
It is the brand name recognition and market desire for that brand.

 

[danieldakota53]

Now that you have simplified your question. The simple asnwer is:
It is the brand name recognition and market desire for that brand.

So Chris, do you believe people just buy on impulse and word of mouth mostly, especially when dealing online these days? Meaning do they buy what's hot just because it's popular.
And thank you for giving your opinion.

 

[whammo57]

Now that you have simplified your question. The simple asnwer is:
It is the brand name recognition and market desire for that brand.

Chris......... you have stated the obvious that most have missed. You have said in one sentence what others have been trying to say in 6 pages of posts.....

thank you

LOL


Kim

 

[bbb]

. I play with some older gentlemen that there shaft is so black from hand oil,swet and chalk dust, I couldn't tell you what shade it originally was. And if you ever tried to clean them or even wipe them down, they will flip out on you,but boy can they play
Ever notice great players seem to always have the same cue (unless sponsored of coarse) year after year, after year?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4414902&postcount=23

to danieldakota53 in a different thread on shaft colors you made this statement bolded above
to me that statement implies that the great player playes with the same cue because THAT CUE feels and plays the best for him and is different than other cues he could play with.
if my interpretation of your statement is correct than i would assume that great player would pay a premium for that cue


edited to add i am not a cuemaker

i know im not a cuemaker yet you say you play with a high level player who doesnt want his shaft touched]
so it is obviousl(to me its "special" even tho cuemakers of similar skill can make a shaft but he prefers the one he has and that great palyers tend to stick with their favorite player
why havent you responded to my post??
your coments in the other thread to me serves an argument against your claims
that no cue should command a higher price than another

 

[danieldakota53]

i know im not a cuemaker yet you say you play with a hugh level player who doesnt want his shaft touched]
so it is obviousl(to me its "special" even tho cuemakers of similar skill can make a shaft but he prefers the one he has and that great palyers tedn to stick with their favorite player
why havent you responded to my post??
your coments in the other thread to me serves an argument against your claims
that no cue should command a higher price than another

He shot with a schon production cue. So no, it was not a special maker, but very special to him. But I do think it had a nice leather wrap, maybe that was custom

 

[Joe Barringer]

I have to say something here. If any of you believe that cue makers make cues as a labor of love, you're all living on Pluto. I don't know who the heck you are talking to but we deal with the lion's share of the market and most every cue maker I talk to is doing it for a living and making money at it; in fact large!

You mean to tell me when a cue maker buys wood for $20, shafts for $10 and ivory for another $100 that they are not making any money. C'mon guys get real here. The profits in making cues is huge. It's like having your own printing press. Geesh!

If you are not making money at this then there are four reasons:
1) you're doing it for fun and an hobby (labor of love)
2) you're not a businessman
3) your product stinks
4) you think more of your cues than the marketplace

Many of you seem to forget that most (remember I said 'most' and not 'all' please) of the guys on here who are posting are not full-time cue makers. The real cue makers will not post because they are too busy making money, running their business and they don't need the hassle of useless threads, name calling and arguments over spilled milk.

Believe it or not, there is a whole world of successful cue makers making money on a daily basis, paying their bills, paying employees and earning large outside of the world of AZ Billiards.

 

[cueman]

So Chris, do you believe people just buy on impulse and word of mouth mostly, especially when dealing online these days? Meaning do they buy what's hot just because it's popular.
And thank you for giving your opinion.

Everyone is different. I doubt many people throw down thousands of dollars for a top name cue just on impulse very often. But people very often do that on cheaper stuff.
So who knows why someone buys?

:deadhorse:

 

[cueman]

You mean to tell me when a cue maker buys wood for $20, shafts for $10 and ivory for another $100 that they are not making any money. C'mon guys get real here. The profits in making cues is huge. It's like having your own printing press. Geesh!

If you are not making money at this then there are four reasons:
1) you're doing it for fun and an hobby (labor of love)
2) you're not a businessman
3) your product stinks
4) you think more of your cues than the marketplace

The reason a lot of cuemakers who get decent dollars for their cues say they are not making money, is because they count the the cost of their "printing press".

In other words they are still counting in the cost of equipment and their supply of materials. They often keep reinvesting all they make in more equipment and materials. That is pretty much what I did in the beginning. In reality they are making good money for hours put in. They are just spending that money to expand their operations and claiming they made no money. But stuff is still a profit. To prove the point. If someone came and gave me a 1000 shaft dowels, a lathe and a table saw. Would I not be a 1000 shaft dowels, a lathe and a table saw richer? Wealth is not always counted in dollars.

I was in a famous smaller cuemaker's shop years ago and he showed me a four point cue with a few inlays in it he was just finishing. He said it was sold for $4500 and that he was losing money building the cue for that price.
I told him that he made at least $100 per hour on that cue and that was pretty good money. But he said that he was getting behind on bills and such waiting on the final money. He is famous for being super slow on turning out work, but his work is really good. He was making good money, just not managing it well.

 

[Joe Barringer]

The reason a lot of cuemakers who get decent dollars for their cues say they are not making money, is because they count the the cost of their "printing press".

In other words they are still counting in the cost of equipment and their supply of materials. They often keep reinvesting all they make in more equipment and materials. That is pretty much what I did in the beginning. In reality they are making good money for hours put in. They are just spending that money to expand their operations and claiming they made no money. But stuff is still a profit. To prove the point. If someone came and gave me a 1000 shaft dowels, a lathe and a table saw. Would I not be a 1000 shaft dowels, a lathe and a table saw richer? Wealth is not always counted in dollars.

I was in a famous smaller cuemaker's shop years ago and he showed me a four point cue with a few inlays in it he was just finishing. He said it was sold for $4500 and that he was losing money building the cue for that price.
I told him that he made at least $100 per hour on that cue and that was pretty good money. But he said that he was getting behind on bills and such waiting on the final money. He is famous for being super slow on turning out work, but his work is really good. He was making good money, just not managing it well.

BINGO! Keyword = just not managing it well.

I hear all the stories as I am sure you do as well. If a cue maker isn't making money he is either not managing his money, too slow at production, hasn't figured out the assembly line yet, waiting too long for his money, has no inventory to pull from, or gouging to get the last dollar. Of course this is a generalization but I see it so many times.

I had one fellow tell me he lost $500 on a cue. I asked how. He said he normally gets $2750 for this cue but he sold it for $2250. I asked him what his cost was and he replied about $100 plus time. So I said, I don't see how you lost anything when you just made $2150. There was dead silence.

Someone said on here that if you sold your cues to flippers or cue resellers at $7500 and they were getting $8500 why wouldn't you then charge $8500. The reason is because they are making your market and as long as they could make $1000 on a cue then they are supporting the market and your cues. If you try to get $8500 you may kill your own market.

Next scenario: a cue maker was selling his cues to resellers for like $2500 a cue. The reseller was getting $3250 a cue. The cue maker was always busy. The cue maker said to me, he wasn't going to sell to the resellers anymore because why should they make a profit when I can make the extra money. Six month later I was at his home. There were about 8 cues laying around collecting dust waiting for buyers. I asked how business was and he said it was a little slow. DUH! He had $20k worth of cues sitting in his house doing nothing but he wanted the extra $750 per cue and got exactly what he deserved; nothing.

When I was about 15, I worked for this elderly Jewish gentleman. I learned a lot from him. He always said to me (in a thick Jewish accent) .... Joe, remember, no von eva vent broke takin a profit and a fast nickel is betta dan a slo dyme.

40 odd years later I still live by those words and no truer words were ever spoken. Some guys try to make the last nickel and spend more time trying to get the last nickel when they are exerting $1000 worth of time and effort. They could exert that time and energy building more cues and making more money. This is not rocket science, we're not putting a man on the moon here. Anyone who can add 2 + 2 can build a cue and do it well. With the right guidance, anyone can make it in this business. I can take any 25 year old who actually wants to work and not play pool all night long, doesn't have bad habits like smoking pot, drinking, etc and make him a success in less than a year.

A lot of people think that what we do is simple but it takes a certain type of individual to persevere. A lot of people try to do what we do and even after working with us have tried but no one has ever succeeded. The reason is because we taught them how to do things but not how to make money. You can make cues and be great at it but after you know how to make the cue, you need to know how to make the money. That's the part we don't teach.

So, what the heck is my point here. Just because you know how to make a cue isn't going to make you successful. You have to know how to make money. And, by making money I don't mean 'making a living' because no one ever got rich 'making a living'.