To all SPF students: Pix = 1000 words

[JoeW]

Pool players have demonstrated over many, many years, and through many, many failed efforts, that they are notoriously bad at organizing themselves. So I would have to say this would be a *really* bad bet.

Lou Figueroa

I agree that players have not been able to organize themselves. Instructors are another breed of cat. Their efforts, backed by the industry leads to pretty good odds based on their approach.

Their current efforts are good and as would be expected for a young discipline. If they have a disadvantage I suspect it lies in the idea that they are too few in number. This may be one of those areas where international efforts will be beneficial. The IPAT system appears to be taking off and cooperation with the BCA is needed. More of those political problems here. There is definitely something in the future. Just what will come of it is to be seen.

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree that players have not been able to organize themselves. Instructors are another breed of cat. Their efforts, backed by the industry leads to pretty good odds based on their approach.

Their current efforts are good and as would be expected for a young discipline. If they have a disadvantage I suspect it lies in the idea that they are too few in number. This may be one of those areas where international efforts will be beneficial. The IPAT system appears to be taking off and cooperation with the BCA is needed. More of those political problems here. There is definitely something in the fuuire. Just what will come of it is to be seen.

Instructors are pool players too. They're just trying to make money out of the game in a different manner than the rest ;-) If we're both around, ten years from now, we can revisit this and see if your optimism was well placed. Personally, I totally doubt it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeW]

There are instructors, instructor/ players and players who try to make a dollar by instructing. In general, the road gets long and difficult if one is to qualify as a recognized instructor. The instructors need to gain control of their profession and yet not lose the respect of their professional player colleagues. This is not an easy task and is acomplished through organization and regulation. For instance, as you point out, there is a need to set some ability and teaching methodology criteria.

The teaching methods criteria soon acts as a deterrent to the person after a quick buck. The well known player will always give lessons. However, eventually they will be sidelined when they find that it is illegal / unethical to provide regular lessons without certification. It is interesting to note that once the rules / policies have been established and accepted most people will follow the defacto guidelines.

 

[Scott Lee]

Lou...It's sort of difficult to understand why you have such a hard-on against good instruction. I can certainly see your point, where the instructor is untested, or unskilled enough to get their point across effectively. That is certainly not the case with Randyg, myself, pooltchr, DennyS, Tom Seymour, Stan Shuffet, or several other SPF instructors...and doesn't include other great instructors like Blackjack Dave Sapolis, Joe Tucker, Lil' Joe Villapondo, and many others. Oh...and btw, at least we're MAKING MONEY from pool! How's your bank account doing, strictly from pool? Not too well, from the stats posted here.

You seem pretty sure of yourself (to put it mildly). Perhaps you'd like to post a wager, concerning your statement below. Since you're so sure, I guess getting odds would be in order. What's your offer?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Instructors are pool players too. They're just trying to make money out of the game in a different manner than the rest ;-) If we're both around, ten years from now, we can revisit this and see if your optimism was well placed. Personally, I totally doubt it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[randyg]

WHAT?!

Fine, I saw (actually, I saw it the first time) but since you insist

Sooooo, what happened to all those pre-1992 Certified Gold Star on the Forehead Man Has a Pulse BCA Instructors? Certainly they had to qualify under the new and improved and super stringent standards, no? Please don't tell me they were grandfathered in and are running around amok-ed.

Their old program no longer existed. Most of them tried to qualify under the new and improved and super stringent standards, yes?

And now you say there's this three-day program candidates have to attend. (You would think that for something often described as one of the toughest, most demanding sports on earth, it'd be a tad longer than three days, but I digress

No, you are correct. Three days is just the start. After that it's a lifetime of dedication.


What about a requirement for reoccurring training and certification every few years (I sure you don't just send in a check)?

It's in place and working well.


How about a Continuing Education requirement? You know, to prove you've kept up with the latest Mike Page, Dr. Dave video and the negative squirt OB-18 shaft someone will eventually come out with.

Yup, that's in place also.


What about a Playing Aptitude Test? Before you get your BCA stamp of approval as an instructor, do you have to prove you can run three balls, or is owning a Chalk Dude sufficient?

We focus more on a Comunication Aptitude Test. Yes, running three balls is mandatory, the Chalk Dude is optional.

Lou Figueroa
(Smorg tribute follows)
I await you next bump
with bait on my breath

Lou: Sounds like you studied our Instructors Program very well. Are you going to join us???????

Thanks...SPF=randyg

 

[Quesports]

More than money!

Instructors are pool players too. They're just trying to make money out of the game in a different manner than the rest ;-) If we're both around, ten years from now, we can revisit this and see if your optimism was well placed. Personally, I totally doubt it.

Lou Figueroa

Having taken lessons from Randy & Scott if they only cared about the money they would be charging lots more. When you compare the cost of Randy's school it is a bargain compared to most of the other pool schools dollar for dollar. To this day when I am struggling all I have to do is check my SPF and invariably I am not doing one of the three correctly.
Dan

 

[JoeyA]

Pap

Lou...It's sort of difficult to understand why you have such a hard-on against good instruction. I can certainly see your point, where the instructor is untested, or unskilled enough to get their point across effectively. That is certainly not the case with Randyg, myself, pooltchr, DennyS, Tom Seymour, Stan Shuffet, or several other SPF instructors...and doesn't include other great instructors like Blackjack Dave Sapolis, Joe Tucker, Lil' Joe Villapondo, and many others. Oh...and btw, at least we're MAKING MONEY from pool! How's your bank account doing, strictly from pool? Not too well, from the stats posted here.

You seem pretty sure of yourself (to put it mildly). Perhaps you'd like to post a wager, concerning your statement below. Since you're so sure, I guess getting odds would be in order. What's your offer?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You shouldn't go there Scott. Luigi doesn't need my comments are anyone else's comments to come to his aid but I would not be me if I didn't finally chime in.

While I haven't always seen eye to eye with Lou, he is not only a good player but he is a VERY FINE POOL INSTRUCTOR. Lou has been sharing his very valuable pool knowledge for quite some time to many of us on the Internet and in person. This has been my own personal experience and not something I heard someone else say about Lou.

It may be different for Lou and I or not but the only beef that I have with many of you official billiard instructors is that you use this forum for the main purpose of gaining new customers. Many of you are reticent about providing genuine pool information that could help the members of this forum, UNLESS THEY ATTEND YOUR POOL SCHOOL. You dangle the carrot but dare not provide a free meal to the forum members. This is where my angst lies.

I haven't seen much detailed information shared by you and some of the other instructors on this forum. You are always ready and willing to accept the accolades from those who have benefited from your teaching but you seldom if ever, provide detailed answers to questions that people ask on this forum virtually every day.

To me, if all of you are going to use this forum as a recruiting ground for customers, I think you should be teaching on this forum virtually every day and free of charge; either that, or paying AZ Billiards some advertising bucks for a banner.

I have not have taken a class from you, Randyg or Poolteacher but I'm sure you provide some good quality instruction and that it helps lots of people but it is not the only place and it may or may not be the best place to receive the best pool instruction. It certainly isn't the only place to learn how to play pool, especially well.

Personally, I have received valuable insights on my own personal game from Jerry Briesath and I paid for that valuable insight, upfront. In fact, recently I thought his valuable insight was so important to me that I again paid tribute for his "lesson" with me to the whole world while he and I shared the commentary booth at Super Billiards Expo just so you know that I don't have a mean streak in me for billiard instructors of any type.

There are a few instructors on this forum who come to this forum on a regular basis and provide FREE, INSIGHTFUL information to this forum group. You and a few others, unfortunately do not.

AND......if you are not careful you might get the opportunity to contibute to Luigi's Pool Account Portfolio. :wink:

Sincerely,

JoeyA

 

[Scott Lee]

JoeyA...That is the biggest pile of crap I've ever read on this forum. ALL of us have provided TONS of FREE information on any facet of teaching, or understanding, how to help someone play better. I, for one, have NEVER EVER declined to answer questions from anybody who directed them to me, whether here in a public post, or a private PM. I've never held anything back, including information on SAM (which is more more difficult to explain in writing, than it is to demonstrate in person...not unlike the hundreds of posts on CTE/Hal Houle). I've also posted on countless other threads, giving my opinions, and offering advice. Yes, some of it has been to search out a qualified instructor...but much more often, it's been solid advice...ALWAYS free of charge. You've got huge balls to make that statement, when you've done ZERO research to support it. :angry: None of us "farm" this site for students. People search us out, because we offer help in something they desire... improving their pool game. I've had quite a bit of respect for you in the past. This post causes me to lose much of that feeling...and that's a shame.

One more thing...ALL of us are disciples of Jerry Briesath. He's the main reason that Randy and I started teaching, and continues to advise us to this day! He founded the BCA Certified Instructor program almost 20 yrs ago.

Oh, and about "contributing" to Lou...that's doubtful, since I don't gamble on pool! I will, however, bet heavily that the BCA/SPF instructor program continues to grow, and get better year after year!

Scott Lee
poolknowledge.com

There are a few instructors on this forum who come to this forum on a regular basis and provide FREE, INSIGHTFUL information to this forum group. You and a few others, unfortunately do not.

AND......if you are not careful you might get the opportunity to contibute to Luigi's Pool Account Portfolio. :wink:

Sincerely,

JoeyA

 

[lfigueroa]

There are instructors, instructor/ players and players who try to make a dollar by instructing. In general, the road gets long and difficult if one is to qualify as a recognized instructor. The instructors need to gain control of their profession and yet not lose the respect of their professional player colleagues. This is not an easy task and is acomplished through organization and regulation. For instance, as you point out, there is a need to set some ability and teaching methodology criteria.

The teaching methods criteria soon acts as a deterrent to the person after a quick buck. The well known player will always give lessons. However, eventually they will be sidelined when they find that it is illegal / unethical to provide regular lessons without certification. It is interesting to note that once the rules / policies have been established and accepted most people will follow the defacto guidelines.

Joe, I can appreciate your optimism. But you are totally dreaming when you say, "...they will be sidelined when they find that it is illegal / unethical to provide regular lessons without certification." It ain't medicine -- it's pool, baby.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Scott Lee]

I completely agree with you here, Lou. There have been, and will always be, great instructors, whether they be BCA Certified, or not...professional players or not (as I mentioned in my last post). Until JoeyA's post I did not realize that you're an instructor too. However, I'm happy to hear that, as our sport needs all the good instructors it can get! There are far too few, for the millions of poolplayers that need help!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Joe, I can appreciate your optimism. But you are totally dreaming when you say, "...they will be sidelined when they find that it is illegal / unethical to provide regular lessons without certification." It ain't medicine -- it's pool, baby.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...It's sort of difficult to understand why you have such a hard-on against good instruction. I can certainly see your point, where the instructor is untested, or unskilled enough to get their point across effectively. That is certainly not the case with Randyg, myself, pooltchr, DennyS, Tom Seymour, Stan Shuffet, or several other SPF instructors...and doesn't include other great instructors like Blackjack Dave Sapolis, Joe Tucker, Lil' Joe Villapondo, and many others. Oh...and btw, at least we're MAKING MONEY from pool! How's your bank account doing, strictly from pool? Not too well, from the stats posted here.

You seem pretty sure of yourself (to put it mildly). Perhaps you'd like to post a wager, concerning your statement below. Since you're so sure, I guess getting odds would be in order. What's your offer?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

hmmm, OK, let's try this: show me -- anywhere -- where I have a "hardon" against good instruction.

Now maybe what I do question are instructors that say: your shoulder must be here and your knuckles there, and oh by the way, Efren does it this way too.

That's a bunch of hooey.

If I have any problem with any instruction at all, it's the guys that come here and beat the bushes for students to pay for the secret of: the shoulder here and the knuckles there.

So how's my pool bank account doing? Well, I assume you're talking about the tournament stats posted here, somewhere. Actually, I only play in one or two events a year nowadays. I get in open events, like the DCC or the old US Open 1pocket event and donate to the pros (did I mention that I finished 30th in the DCC 1pocket this year . So there's not much money in that, for moi. But still, somehow, I manage to pay for all my pool expenses and the occasional trinket for my wife, from minor bets placed here and there. So, I do OK.

As to the bet proffer, I thought you were the guy who didn't bet. So the only reason I can come up with for you to suddenly want to "bet" is because you have inside info.

I'm not surprised ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Having taken lessons from Randy & Scott if they only cared about the money they would be charging lots more. When you compare the cost of Randy's school it is a bargain compared to most of the other pool schools dollar for dollar. To this day when I am struggling all I have to do is check my SPF and invariably I am not doing one of the three correctly.
Dan

There's only so much the market will bear -- regardless of what the instructor thinks their instruction is worth.

Maybe if you thought your instruction was worth more, you should have thrown them a couple hundred extra

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

You shouldn't go there Scott. Luigi doesn't need my comments are anyone else's comments to come to his aid but I would not be me if I didn't finally chime in.

While I haven't always seen eye to eye with Lou, he is not only a good player but he is a VERY FINE POOL INSTRUCTOR. Lou has been sharing his very valuable pool knowledge for quite some time to many of us on the Internet and in person. This has been my own personal experience and not something I heard someone else say about Lou.

It may be different for Lou and I or not but the only beef that I have with many of you official billiard instructors is that you use this forum for the main purpose of gaining new customers. Many of you are reticent about providing genuine pool information that could help the members of this forum, UNLESS THEY ATTEND YOUR POOL SCHOOL. You dangle the carrot but dare not provide a free meal to the forum members. This is where my angst lies.

I haven't seen much detailed information shared by you and some of the other instructors on this forum. You are always ready and willing to accept the accolades from those who have benefited from your teaching but you seldom if ever, provide detailed answers to questions that people ask on this forum virtually every day.

To me, if all of you are going to use this forum as a recruiting ground for customers, I think you should be teaching on this forum virtually every day and free of charge; either that, or paying AZ Billiards some advertising bucks for a banner.

I have not have taken a class from you, Randyg or Poolteacher but I'm sure you provide some good quality instruction and that it helps lots of people but it is not the only place and it may or may not be the best place to receive the best pool instruction. It certainly isn't the only place to learn how to play pool, especially well.

Personally, I have received valuable insights on my own personal game from Jerry Briesath and I paid for that valuable insight, upfront. In fact, recently I thought his valuable insight was so important to me that I again paid tribute for his "lesson" with me to the whole world while he and I shared the commentary booth at Super Billiards Expo just so you know that I don't have a mean streak in me for billiard instructors of any type.

There are a few instructors on this forum who come to this forum on a regular basis and provide FREE, INSIGHTFUL information to this forum group. You and a few others, unfortunately do not.

AND......if you are not careful you might get the opportunity to contibute to Luigi's Pool Account Portfolio. :wink:

Sincerely,

JoeyA

Thanks, Joey. As you say, we have not always seen eye to eye, but we go way back and I consider you a friend and one of the straightest shooters -- in every sense -- in the pool world.

As you pointed out, there have always been the guys that just use the groups for their own economic enrichment. And I'm not just talking about a couple of instructors here. If you go to any group, you can go through the archives and find pros, tournament promoters, cue makers, and instructors, who do little more than hype themselves, their event, their products, themselves, and their secret systems. I am not saying they are all this way, but just by way of example, take a look at a couple of guys that push their DVDs here. What kind of contribution do they make to the group when it comes to all the discussion here about how to play better pool? Maybe I missed it, but I'm thinking of all the 14.1 threads I've read, and aiming system threads, and spin, and draw, and follow, etc., etc., and has one of these guys come on to say, "Look. Right or wrong, here's how I do it." Like I said, maybe I missed it.

So what do they post here, that's of use to the average player: squadoosh.

Oh yeah, sure, there's the occasional war story, or woof. But you'd think with all the knowledge some of these guys have, they'd come out and post a little something for the troops: instruction, techniques, systems, insights.

Like I said, I consider you one of the straightest shooters, and you hammered this one into the pocket.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I completely agree with you here, Lou. There have been, and will always be, great instructors, whether they be BCA Certified, or not...professional players or not (as I mentioned in my last post). Until JoeyA's post I did not realize that you're an instructor too. However, I'm happy to hear that, as our sport needs all the good instructors it can get! There are far too few, for the millions of poolplayers that need help!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I am not an instructor. When people come to me for lessons, I try and steer them to guys that are set up to do that.

However, I have thought about and studied the game for a long time. And for many years now, I have posted about my thoughts, success, failures and hard won insights, for anyone who cares to read them. I have been told "you should write a book" more than once and maybe one day I'll finish it.

Then I'll have something to sell too

Lou Figueroa

 

[Scott Lee]

Lou...Perhaps you should clue JoeyA to that, since he's the one who posted it! If you ever took the time to come see how we teach, perhaps we'd be among those you "steer" people to...perhaps not. But, you have an offer, even if just to observe...from me, Randyg, Pooltcher, or several others...if you choose to take advantage of it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I am not an instructor. When people come to me for lessons, I try and steer them to guys that are set up to do that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...Perhaps you should clue JoeyA to that, since he's the one who posted it! If you ever took the time to come see how we teach, perhaps we'd be among those you "steer" people to...perhaps not. But, you have an offer, even if just to observe...from me, Randyg, Pooltcher, or several others...if you choose to take advantage of it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I dan't have to clue Joey into anything.

He wasn't being literal, but rather paying me a compliment for all the instructional stuff I've posted over the years.

And frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to be part of the SPF mafia Randy is running at BCA, so thanks, but no thanks

Lou Figueroa
aren't you glad
you "bumped" this

 

[Scott Lee]

Lou...Nobody even SUGGESTED (let alone offered) for you to be part of the SPF program. It was only an offer to possibly broaden your horizons (that doesn't mean you'd use it...just that it's more information...which is what all good teachers continually seek). SPF Mafia??? ROFLMAO! Obviously you already know everything, which makes it impossible for you to learn any other way. A closed mind is just that...

Fortunately there are other pro player/instructors out there (like Max Eberle, among others, for example) who know the value of what we teach, and have incorporated some of the concepts into their own style of teaching!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

And frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to be part of the SPF mafia Randy is running at BCA, so thanks, but no thanks

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...Nobody even SUGGESTED (let alone offered) for you to be part of the SPF program. It was only an offer to possibly broaden your horizons (that doesn't mean you'd use it...just that it's more information...which is what all good teachers continually seek). SPF Mafia??? ROFLMAO! Obviously you already know everything, which makes it impossible for you to learn any other way. A closed mind is just that...

Fortunately there are other pro player/instructors out there (like Max Eberle, among others, for example) who know the value of what we teach, and have incorporated some of the concepts into their own style of teaching!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No, I don't know much. Never claimed to.

And believe me, I have no interest in getting an SPF decoder ring and aluminum foil helmet, so I don't know what you're talking about with suggestions and offers. (What did Groucho Marx say, "I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.")

But you do surprise me: I've never run a cross a *good* instructor who equates someone questioning them, to that person having a "closed mind." It sounds to me that you are the one that needs to broaden their horizons ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[Scott Lee]

I don't feel that you're questioning me personally...and I certainly don't feel 'threatened' by anything you say. I would welcome an opportunity to see how/what/why you teach someone (which was why we made the offer to you). That's just more information for me...which I try to glean from any source possible. We always encourage our students (and instructors) to take all information (even ours), with a grain of salt. Sort it out...use what you like...discard what you don't! Does that sound like a closed mind to you?

I'm done with this thread, as it's gone on for at least several pages, about "us" vs. "them"...which is not at all what it was started about.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

But you do surprise me: I've never run a cross a *good* instructor who equates someone questioning them, to that person having a "closed mind." It sounds to me that you are the one that needs to broaden their horizons ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I don't feel that you're questioning me personally...and I certainly don't feel 'threatened' by anything you say. I would welcome an opportunity to see how/what/why you teach someone (which was why we made the offer to you). That's just more information for me...which I try to glean from any source possible. We always encourage our students (and instructors) to take all information (even ours), with a grain of salt. Sort it out...use what you like...discard what you don't! Does that sound like a closed mind to you?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

wow. You know, I know it's a common internet retort to say something like, "learn to read," but really now: *you* were the one that said, "Obviously you already know everything, which makes it impossible for you to learn any other way. A closed mind is just that..."

So, somewhat obviously, that wasn't *me* saying *you* had a closed mind.

Lou Figueroa