To Change a Southwest wrap
- Thread starter The Dragon
- Start date
Ken, do you know how many cues come out of the SW shop every year? How about how many have been built since inception?
According to the Blue Book of Pool Cues, 3rd edition (2005), their annual production at that time was around 250 cues per year. They've been in business since 1982, so their total production for 33 years would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 8250 cues. Even if their production fell off to 150 to 200 cues/year, that's still 5000 to 6600 cues.
And so?.... What does that have to do with changing a wrap? Incidentally if I had 10 Runde's Id take your SW's off your hands all day long.. Well someone who HAS some SW's anyway. The only difference is I'd bet THEY wouldn't make the trade...Touché
In their early years the production was not 250 a year.. Somewhere between 100 and 150. As I understand it, production has hit 250 cues a year but It hasn't been the consistent norm. I would guess that the total number of cues that have come out of their shop is more in the 4500 plus range... Not too many if you consider that they've had a few people to help get the work done. No matter how many, that's the most cues to be built at such a high level of consistency that's ever been, IMO, and still continuing. Because of the quality of the build and their desirability leading to their 12+ year waiting list, is my reasoning for not changing the wrap.
No I dont know the exact number but I would have guessed about 200-400 per year.
That's around a cue EVERYDAY. They have become a production cue manufacturer in my mind. There are far from my idea of a custom cue maker. The buyer has a limited number of wood choices (no ebony anymore), and you can pick the number and color of veneers, and ring locations, and that is about it.
Hell, Palmer years ago had more choices.
I think if I wanted to buy a cue to play with, for the 2000-4000, I could pick up a used Southwest, and play with it. When I get ready to sell it, I would lose little if anything. Much less than most other cues. I have sold a number of them, and I have kept only one, that I have had for years. JF era, with an ebony nose. I got another shaft and joint protectors for it from SW and probably have $2K in cue, including 3 shafts and joint protectors total.
I am on the other side of this argument, when I bought the Southwest, it had been refinished, and leather wrap on it. I would have preferred linen, but it wasn't a big enough deal to cause me to change immediately. I probably had about $1500 in cue with 2 original shafts, and I thought that was outrageous....
More of an answer, than your question.
As far as numbers, I wonder if "pacifiers" are included in their numbers. There are TONS of those out there too.
Ken
My AZ brother,
If a Southwest cues lost about 1/2 of its value like most other cues, would their waiting list be 12 years?
I think not.
Years ago, people bought Southwest cues to make a few bucks. Sure, some bought them to play with, but the majority folks, (including me) bought them and never hit a ball with them. I just flipped them and made a quick $500.
I am not saying they aren't a great playing cue. I have had several and they have played great.
Now, I am not so sure with their higher prices, that you can flip them and make the money like you used to be able to do.
There are tons of cues and cue makers out there. I stand by my earlier statement, there are THOUSANDS of Southwests. VERY FEW are rare.
I wish everyone the best of rolls,
Ken
These volume figures mentioned are substantially off. Their cue production has been down for years. In my opinion, SW is the only custom cue with a *true worldwide demand*. Hence the big prices, that are holding.
Every year I have questioned why such high prices because they are essentially a plain cue. Every year, I have been proven wrong.
Every year I have questioned why such high prices because they are essentially a plain cue. Every year, I have been proven wrong.
When did they start sending out? You didn't say changing the wrap hurts the value but I'll throw it in there anyway. That hype or should I say copout was created right here on AZ by buyers looking for another reason to haggle with a seller. There is a list of certain cues by makers of what should be done and what shouldn't be done to protect the value. Finish is most definately part of the list to keep original to certain makers and any Cue maker worth his salt knows it. The wrap is not on that list unless it is an antique where the wrap in question is part of the actual value.
What's reality and unfortunately. What's AZ. They are not the same in most circumstances.
Hi Mike! Happy New Year!
If I understand you correctly Im a complete 180 from your thoughts. Though I'm involved in making cues I'm also a collector. From a collectors standpoint ANYTHING done to alter a cue from its originality, besides the wearable part such as the tip, affects the value. In fact some cues that still have their original tips can be more desirable than not. I've followed this same credo LONG before there as an AZ billiards. As far as a maker, it's a cue. Do what the customer wants....
It ALL depends on the cue in question....
Ok but the question was does changing the wrap affect the value. I say YES, as a collector. Though I'm not on the market anymore for a SW since I obtained my 87' Ebony nosed Franklin I still look and every time I see a SW for sale that has had a leather wrap put on it I look to see it came from SW that way. If not I look no further. Today there are a lot of good playing cues to be had so when talking about cues the regularly sell in the 4K range every little thing done to the cue can matter to serious collectors.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Happy New Year Ken!
I think from a collectibility standpoint, while you certainly will cut down on the pool of potential buyers for a sw cue with a wrap changed aftermarket to leather, there are still going to be buyers for these cues if done well.
Case in point is the sw I posted earlier in this thread and I must say the one pictured above posted by HereWeGo - that sure is gorgeous with that wrap.
Someone will buy it!
There's always gonna be a small percentage of guys who love the sw playability but don't like linen.
A truly rare *and collectible* sw, like for instance the inlaid ones, I agree, those should not be altered.
best,
brian kc
Case in point is the sw I posted earlier in this thread and I must say the one pictured above posted by HereWeGo - that sure is gorgeous with that wrap.
Someone will buy it!
There's always gonna be a small percentage of guys who love the sw playability but don't like linen.
A truly rare *and collectible* sw, like for instance the inlaid ones, I agree, those should not be altered.
best,
brian kc
Hi Tim
Happy New Year to you also. I always respect your views because I know, you know cues. There are guidelines and I live by them. As far as what the customer wants. OH HELL NO. and everyone that knows me, knows it. I'm lucky to be friends with the Cue makers that most wish they were friends with. And I've earned it. It doesn't start with me thinking about what's in the customers wallet. I could care less and they know that too. What ever changes I make to certain cues. It is discussed with the original maker or next in line in the chain of command. I'm sure you understand that. If I get stumped and it happens. I call someone wiser than I and ask. I'm always quick to put Az'ers under the bus. I might be wrong but not often. I do the same in the cue maker section because let's face it. There are Cue makers who have studied their craft. doing their own R&D, researching what was done before them, and there are AZ Cue makers who study nothing and learn buy the ATCM. Experts in 30 days or less. I probably shouldn't have said that either.
I'd say if you're going to keep it forever as your main player, do what pleases you as far as wraps. But you mentioned 'marketability' meaning you might sell it, in which case I'd leave it original... putting $300 into a wrap IMO won't raise the value an additional $300.