To $pin or not to $pin... Depend$ if you like Money

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
When competing it's best to eliminate or at least reduce unnecessary calculations. I've played a lot with Earl Stickland and he does spin his ball, but does it consistently. He's not putting a various of random "spins" on the ball, he's using the spin to increase margin of error in his "Pocket Zone". I do this using a "Touch of Inside" and the 3 Part Pocket System to increase my target size (the pocket).

Spinning the cue ball is something you must practice to become comfortable. If you use a lot of different speeds and spins you will become stuck at a certain intermediate level. I suggest you practice with one shot speed, and a variety of spins to see how your cue ball reacts. Then reduce your speed and practice the same variety of spins. Notice the difference and be realistic about how difficult it is to make those calculations.

I'm telling you from a lot of playing and gambling experience. I can do almost anything without spin that anyone else can do with spin.
The exceptions is when I have to change the natural angle after contacting the cushion and if the cue ball needs to be swerved. Those two type shots require spin, and every other shot can be done without spinning the cue ball.

I suggest developing ONE consistent shot and try to use it as much as possible, especially under a lot of pressure. If you think spinning the ball all the time is more fun than running out every time.....well.....I just hope you don't play for your hard earned money.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Earl Stickland's not putting a various of random "spins" on the ball, he's using the spin to increase margin of error in his "Pocket Zone". I do this using a "Touch of Inside" and the 3 Part Pocket System to increase my target size (the pocket).
Being more precise about where on the cue ball you're hitting and where in the pocket you're aiming ("pocket zones") are very good practices.

But as we've discussed before, favoring side spin over center ball can't actually increase the physical margin of error or "target size" - in particular it doesn't limit misses to one direction.

pj
chgo
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Being more precise about where on the cue ball you're hitting and where in the pocket you're aiming ("pocket zones") are very good practices.

But as we've discussed before, favoring side spin over center ball can't actually increase the physical margin of error or "target size" - in particular it doesn't limit misses to one direction.

pj
chgo
Perception/belief/confidence have so much to do with playing pool or any game for that matter. You can talk science til you're blue-n-the-face but sometimes just pure belief in how one does something can lead to success. Belief and conviction can be powerful team-mates.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Perception/belief/confidence have so much to do with playing pool or any game for that matter. You can talk science til you're blue-n-the-face but sometimes just pure belief in how one does something can lead to success. Belief and conviction can be powerful team-mates.
That's certainly true, even if it doesn't change the physical facts - it may be even more important than the physical facts sometimes. But I still think the most valuable thing is knowing and "believing in" the actual facts.

pj
chgo
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think CJ was referring to a more precise version of the oldtimers always grazing the rail on the way to a corner pocket. The object ball picks up running english there which kills the ball on the visible (far) facing. It may subsequently drop by perfect rolling or more often careen into the other facing where either by correct angle or now residual running spin, head for the lip.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think CJ was referring to a more precise version of the oldtimers always grazing the rail on the way to a corner pocket. The object ball picks up running english there which kills the ball on the visible (far) facing. It may subsequently drop by perfect rolling or more often careen into the other facing where either by correct angle or now residual running spin, head for the lip.
Read some of his descriptions in the old "Touch of Inside" threads. He specifically aims for center pocket, and claims the inside hit on the CB increases the margin of error by limiting misses to one direction.

Ironically, he promotes that idea in his own thread encouraging limiting side spin.

pj
chgo
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
I spoke with the bank to confirm. Indeed, they do not accept spin. He explained how high-risk commodities work and described spin as catch twenty-two. He said users need to use spin a lot to be proficient, but on the other hand, it's use should be avoided as much as possible. He told me to bring in money instead.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Read some of his descriptions in the old "Touch of Inside" threads. He specifically aims for center pocket, and claims the inside hit on the CB increases the margin of error by limiting misses to one direction.

Ironically, he promotes that idea in his own thread encouraging limiting side spin.

pj
chgo
Touch of inside that CJ refers to is like a 1/4 or 1/2 tip of inside, I really wouldnt call that spin, its more of less margin of error. I would say that I use spin sparingly, I will use up to a tip of outside to reduce throw on some shots and a tip of inside on rail shots, that stuff to me is just english. To me spinning is using 2 tips and really changing rebound angles or throwing a ball when another ball impedes your shot line.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
"Spin to win!" I do like it when other players believe that. Exceptions to every general statement but almost all pool players fall in love with sidespin at what I call the adolescent stage of their pool playing. That doesn't mean they are adolescents, it means in my opinion their game hasn't fully matured.

The quality of tables we find in pool halls and even bars is typically much higher today than it was fifty years ago. Fifty years ago it seemed that many tables had been put in during or right after WWII and the cloth and cushions hadn't been changed since then! Six cushions that played exactly the same were rare so you didn't want to demand too much of them.

Today, we walk into a strange pool room, look at the tables, and know pretty well how they are going to play. The issue is that people that don't play fifty hours a month are trying to copy the people playing fifty hours or more a week. Doesn't work out well for the player that plays far less than the other.

I am not talking about half a tip or less, most can manage that just fine especially with low deflection shafts. However if a casual player finds themselves trying to reach out as far as they can at least once most runs, they might be suffering from spin addiction.

Hu
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Being more precise about where on the cue ball you're hitting and where in the pocket you're aiming ("pocket zones") are very good practices.

But as we've discussed before, favoring side spin over center ball can't actually increase the physical margin of error or "target size" - in particular it doesn't limit misses to one direction.

pj
chgo
Sure it does, that's why myself and all the champion players can spot you the 6 out and rob you. lol I've been around the filipinos, they all do what I do, but they don't like to tell their potential opponents. I simply don't care, my life wouldn't change if everyone learned what I know and beat me with it, my mission would be complete and would be eternally wealthy.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
"Spin to win!" I do like it when other players believe that. Exceptions to every general statement but almost all pool players fall in love with sidespin at what I call the adolescent stage of their pool playing. That doesn't mean they are adolescents, it means in my opinion their game hasn't fully matured.

The quality of tables we find in pool halls and even bars is typically much higher today than it was fifty years ago. Fifty years ago it seemed that many tables had been put in during or right after WWII and the cloth and cushions hadn't been changed since then! Six cushions that played exactly the same were rare so you didn't want to demand too much of them.

Today, we walk into a strange pool room, look at the tables, and know pretty well how they are going to play. The issue is that people that don't play fifty hours a month are trying to copy the people playing fifty hours or more a week. Doesn't work out well for the player that plays far less than the other.

I am not talking about half a tip or less, most can manage that just fine especially with low deflection shafts. However if a casual player finds themselves trying to reach out as far as they can at least once most runs, they might be suffering from spin addiction.

Hu
Yes, it's like in golf, every top player moves the ball off the straight line of their alignment, but first they had to develop a repeatable swing. It's the same in pool, at first players are just trying to hit the ball straight, at the highest levels we are aligning straight, but moving the ball off that line to give a maximum zone, which creates a bigger pocket zone. There are similarities in all games and sports, just gotta have the eyes that can see and the ears that can hear how to take advantage of these essential secrets.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think CJ was referring to a more precise version of the oldtimers always grazing the rail on the way to a corner pocket. The object ball picks up running english there which kills the ball on the visible (far) facing. It may subsequently drop by perfect rolling or more often careen into the other facing where either by correct angle or now residual running spin, head for the lip.
I don't actually spin the cueball, I "twist it" like you'd hold a bank but not quite that much. The effect on the object ball is the same and it does put "pocket acceptance spin" on the OB so, like you said the ball goes in easier hitting a rail coming in. There are many advantages to what I'm suggestion once a player knows how it all fits together with their other fundamentals. Feet and body positioning is also vital to consistency!
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...favoring side spin over center ball can't actually increase the physical margin of error or "target size" - in particular it doesn't limit misses to one direction.
Sure it does, that's why myself and all the champion players can spot you the 6 out and rob you. lol
So that's what it is... all the top pros play like you do.

Was wondering where they got their winning ways...

lol

pj
chgo
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
So that's what it is... all the top pros play like you do.

Was wondering where they got their winning ways...

lol

pj
chgo
I said the we can all give you the 6 out....nice try! I really wish everyone could play the game to their fullest potential, including you, the only thing that holds you back is your ego and willingness to pursue the Truth. This game is perfect, we just have to uncover that perfection.

All the champion players have chosen the way of the warrior, the path of Truth. At first it's a bitter pill to swallow, especially when players get set in their ways, The reward is when we make the transition from playing the game to the Game playing through us. People argue whether pocket billiards is a game or a sport and overlook that it's an art form, a way to personal expression and mastery.

The Game is the Teacher
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I was kid learning the game in Jersey (early 60's) the owner of the room was an old time primarily 14.1 player that competed with Mosconi,
Caras and others of that level since the 1920's.
He still could play quite well in the early 60's despite having to wear rather thick glasses at his age.
He always encouraged me to hit center ball and never spin the cue ball unless absolutely necessary.
He would say "spin the cue ball and sleep in the park"
 

Good Sam

Registered
When I was kid learning the game in Jersey (early 60's) the owner of the room was an old time primarily 14.1 player that competed with Mosconi,
Caras and others of that level since the 1920's.
He still could play quite well in the early 60's despite having to wear rather thick glasses at his age.
He always encouraged me to hit center ball and never spin the cue ball unless absolutely necessary.
He would say "spin the cue ball and sleep in the park"
Sounds like Danny DiLiberto.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I was kid learning the game in Jersey (early 60's) the owner of the room was an old time primarily 14.1 player that competed with Mosconi,
Caras and others of that level since the 1920's.
He still could play quite well in the early 60's despite having to wear rather thick glasses at his age.
He always encouraged me to hit center ball and never spin the cue ball unless absolutely necessary.
He would say "spin the cue ball and sleep in the park"
I think the priorities on consistency are a little extreme in 14.1; game of inches etc... "Centerball only" makes a lot of sense under those conditions.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
When I was kid learning the game in Jersey (early 60's) the owner of the room was an old time primarily 14.1 player that competed with Mosconi,
Caras and others of that level since the 1920's.
He still could play quite well in the early 60's despite having to wear rather thick glasses at his age.
He always encouraged me to hit center ball and never spin the cue ball unless absolutely necessary.
He would say "spin the cue ball and sleep in the park"

I was there for the Shane V vs Dennis Orcollo match in Ok City a couple weeks ago and the entire match (120/119) between the two players they probably hit the center around 5% of the time (the exception is straight in shots, you do want to hit center low/high)... they are usually twisting the cueball slightly. You can see the "Twist" on the cueball when they play, it's obvious when you know what to look for and the effect on the cue ball. The other critical factor is how they "POP" their shots, like popping a whip. (still smooth, it's done with your tempo)

It's like golf, you don't want to hit the ball exactly straight, and you don't want to slice or hook, there's a perfect in-between - it's the same way in pool. This is advanced, but if you want to advance the next level it's definitely something to work on. If anyone has questions I'll be glad to help and if you want the knowledge explained and demonstrated visually check out my website at www.masteringpocketbilliards.com there's 12+ hours of instructional material. The Touch of Inside section has 90 minutes and the TIP Banking Secrets show how to create any angle by pivoting the tip or a parallel shift of the cue.

Dennis Orcollo said he uses a Touch of Outside on new cloth with big pockets and the Touch of Inside on tables with worn cloth and tight pockets. This makes sense because my forte was always playing gambling matches on worn cloth with 4 - 4.3 inch pockets. Whichever you prefer is fine, again, it's like Fading or Drawing a golf ball, same concept, just with Touch of Outside you do have to spin the cueball more so that it counteracts the deflection/veering.

This is powerful but it does take at least 3 straight hours to get the hang of it after you learn the technique, and then you can continue to improve it, and there's other advantages too that I need a pool table to show.

Play Well, the Game is the Teacher

Mastering Pocket Billiards
 
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