To Review or Not to Review -- THAT is the Question

Thanks, Lou. For exposing yourself to being added to various guys' enemies lists, you're a better man that I (Gunga Din).

And now for my vignette. I was in the Derby City straight pool challenge room and nothing was happening when a gentleman brought in a top level player for a lesson on aiming. I won't name the player but he is a top level pro, the very top, one who has sometimes been mentioned by aiming system advocates - not as a CTE'er but as someone who has his own system. So I was a fly upon the wall as he explained how he aims. I thought, man oh man, am I in the right place at the right time!

I could not follow his explanation. That could well be because I am too dense to follow it, but I truly think otherwise - he couldn't logically explain it because it isn't really a "system". On some shots he aims this way and on other shots he aims that way. It's a way of aiming that he gradually developed on his own and he sinks balls with it as well as anyone ever, but it doesn't transfer as a neat, logical system. The mental processes he employs have become automatic for him, it works, and that's that. Maybe the gentleman taking the lesson got something out of it but I did not, so it's been back to my "when it looks right, shoot" system. I rather think that's the essence of his system too when you come right down to it.

But, then again, maybe I'm just too dumb to get it. For those that think that, I won't argue with ya.
 
your right, lou outed himself a long long time ago as classless :thumbup: aint you jb's buddy? you still chasing him around this board, calling him names? lol now thats classy too :thumbup:

Darn it I thought you were done with this thread. Don't worry Joey A will be here soon to tell you what a great guy you are despite the evidence. Probably in Blue too.
 
Lou, do you see the same problem(s) with back-hand english, front-hand english, or a combination of both?

I think there is a big difference between 1) pivoting to center cue ball. and then, misalligned, taking practice strokes and shooting; and, 2) maintaining proper allignment, taking practice strokes and then when pulling the trigger slightly swooping the cue off to one side or the other. Backhand english happens in a single swoop, not allowing time for one to feel awkward. JMHO
 
Darn it I thought you were done with this thread. Don't worry Joey A will be here soon to tell you what a great guy you are despite the evidence. Probably in Blue too.

i think i will leave u alone, last thing i want to deal with is a guy willing to stalk someone on a internet forum :confused:
 
Well, the review was no different than I expected. Certainly Lou is entitled to his opinion. I did think the review was well written and had some points of merit. So far, the system is no where near as simple as I expected, and I felt the DVD left me with a lot of questions, even after watching it a few times. I think that a camera angle showing what Stan sees as he sights in the shot and moves into the line would have been beneficial. That being said, I have little doubt that the system works after employing it in practice. When done correctly, balls go in center pocket on shots that would normally be challenging. The system has been difficult for me to reproduce repititvely thus far, and the lack of ease in figuring what aim points, bridge lengths, and pivot position has made it more complicated than I expected. However, I sincerely believ that if I put in the time to grasp and become proficient with the system, than I will be a much better shot maker than I was before. That is coming from someone that has been more frustrated at the table learning this system than any other time at the table.

This system may not be for everyone, and at least for me, has not been as easy as some have said. However, I would not let the review of any one person, especially someone so biased against the system to begin with determine whether or not I gave it a try. I could have told you that Lou's review would be negative, as the DVD really did not address any of the complaints he had about the system before. I also would not expect to get up and use it proficiently after viewing it once (although Stan did say it would take a few wks to months). Given the change it can make in your game if you are willing to put in some time figuring it out and getting good at it, it may be the best $40 you spend on pool. ONLY you will be able to judge that for yourself.
 
knowing posting this would be a classless act and you doing it to spite people and for your amusement shows your character and what a low life you really are. :thumbup:

Champ, I really thought you were teasing here. Since you're not, rather than ridicule why don't you help clear the muddy water - perhaps by answering some of Dr. Dave's questions, or by helping poor Lou through his bewilderment. Don't rattle now, champ!
 
Champ, I really thought you were teasing here. Since you're not, rather than ridicule why don't you help clear the muddy water - perhaps by answering some of Dr. Dave's questions, or by helping poor Lou through his bewilderment. Don't rattle now, champ!

Help Lou through his bewilderment? The guy says pivoting while down is bad technique. He knows CTE is based on pivots--- so he had a predisposition to be "bewildered."
 
Champ, I really thought you were teasing here. Since you're not, rather than ridicule why don't you help clear the muddy water - perhaps by answering some of Dr. Dave's questions, or by helping poor Lou through his bewilderment. Don't rattle now, champ!

i did try and answer dr daves questions in the cte thread as "i" see it, have a look. lou honestly in my eyes bought the dvd for the purpose of trashing it, hard to believe, but i do.
 
It'll pick up steam tomorrow. JoeyA is playing in a tournament right now, according to BigTrucks thread...

Who knows, maybe JB will jump in too. Then we'll have the usual donnybrook :p
 
Help Lou through his bewilderment? The guy says pivoting while down is bad technique. He knows CTE is based on pivots--- so he had a predisposition to be "bewildered."

Everyone agrees that good allignment is critical to good shotmaking. Logically then pivoting when down would not be good if it pivots you into improper allignment. I always assumed you took the pivot into account, prior to pivoting to center, so that the pivot results in good allignment. Isn't that the case?
 
Everyone agrees that good allignment is critical to good shotmaking. Logically then pivoting when down would not be good if it pivots you into improper allignment. I always assumed you took the pivot into account, prior to pivoting to center, so that the pivot results in good allignment. Isn't that the case?

You're pivoting an average of 6.5mm. You're not pivoting into alignment, out of alignment, whatever. :confused:
 
Roger, I love a "can't win" situation :-) Thanks.

And so, here’s my review

I tried watching the DVD with an open mind. But frankly, very quickly, the DVD became painful to watch. There is a thimbleful of basic info, followed by endless loops of shot demonstrations, often repeated a second time, and a couple of break and runs, all edited without a miss.

Here’s the good stuff: Stan teaches you a PSR. He tells you to offset your body, establish contact with the cue with your bridge hand and slide into the shot in a consistent manner. Good solid stuff, no doubt, but hardly news worthy. (Having just watched the video of his 183 ball run at the DCC, it is surprisingly similar to Darren Appleton’s PSR.) He even goes into a suggested shot routine (eye movement and warm up strokes) which was also some good stuff.

And I think that’s why some folks find success with the systems outlined on the DVD: they are adding some consistency to their pre-shot and shot routines. That, and what all this edges and centers stuff does is: *it forces you* to look -- and I mean *really look* -- at the cue ball and object ball. It is something tyros and advanced players can benefit from. So, all of that taken together is probably worth some serious improvement to a wide range of players. But that’s about it.

The bad part is that there is movement of the cue after you’re down. Or even with the air/body pivots, alignments that may or may not benefit you as an individual player. IOW, they may work for Stan, Landon, and Stevie, but not necessarily for many others. (I think that actually, for the camera, they could make it work shooting between their legs :-) This is most evident where Stan demonstrates the changing position of the V of his bridge hand and you sit there and wonder: how on God’s good green Simonis covered Earth does he think that is going to equally apply to all the pool players in pooldom.

And, in all probably, that little pivot is going to mess with your cue delivery. If you don’t believe me take a close look at the *huge* sideways movement of his cue, hand, forearm, elbow, and bicep when Stan demonstrates for the use of BHE. None of that is good for a good consistent repeatable and accurate stroke that won’t break down under the heat.

The systems themselves reminded me, by and large, of some of the 3C systems I’ve seen diagrammed over the years. You know: the ones where you put all kinds of numbers on the diamonds and corners, check the path/line the balls are on, do some rudimentary math, and viola! You can’t miss the shot. Of course that only works under perfect conditions and after you’ve done some major experimentation.

And so you have a DVD that contains a modicum of basic system info -- which I think Dr. Dave has done an excellent job of summarizing -- and then an endless loop of Stan, Landon, and Stevie, shooting shot after shot demonstrating how, if you make the right choices, you will not miss and the system will work for you.

The chapter on banks is… problematic. Banks are fired in by all participants, after you are told the right formula for various positions on the grid, but without any insight into how those formulas were arrived at for the appropriate aim point on the rail. And, of course, according to the DVD, the system works flawlessly not only for banks, but jump shots, break shots, caroms, and paper thin cuts (with an adjustment and a surprising amount of small print that basically explains how you’re on your own on these shots.) I was surprised it wasn’t claimed that it was perfect for masse shots too :-)

And so, bottom line: the systems can and will be whatever the player wants them to be.

Sometimes the pivot is obvious; sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; bridge length -- pick one; amount of pivot -- till it looks right; back hand English can be used with gay abandon, to a point, if you pivot just so; and, according to the DVD, of course you can use the systems for everything from the lag shot to five ball combo kick banks (just kidding on that last one, but just barely).

IOW, if you work with it long enough you can make it work, but only because you’ve played with it so long that you eventually make all the necessary intuitive adjustments for any kind of success. Oh yes, and it seems that if you get outside the realm of a minimal use of English, to “get the cue ball off the object ball,” you are, once again, on your own. There is a very quick screen that does come up to mention (almost in passing), that English can be important for positional play. Who knew?

If you think the DVD is going to provide you with a definitive proof that these systems are scientifically and/or geometrically precise -- you can lose that thought right now, it’s not there. If you think you’re going to learn some aiming system that is going to make you a successful player in short order, forget that too -- to make these puppies work you are going to have to study, memorize, experiment, and put in loooooong hours (you’ll probably need to make a phone call or two, and probably sign up for a lesson or three). And you need to realize that all that system induced movement before and after you get into shooting position could send you down a path -- which depending on your devotion to the system -- from which you may never emerge and could possibly (probably) keep you from ever being as good a pool player as you might otherwise be.

Which brings me to this: overall, there is a part of me that wants to say that, perhaps, there is some (much) key info kept purposely fuzzy, because there is *no way* you could put this out in the marketplace and expect people -- that had no prior knowledge and understanding of the system -- to succeed. If you want “to believe” after watching this DVD you are almost compelled to contact Stan, because IMO, it certainly does not stand alone as advertised.

One last thing: I have no doubt that Stan really and truly believes in what he’s teaching. IOW, I do believe his work on these systems is a sincere effort to further pool knowledge and help the players watching it. But, I think he’s gone too far down the aiming system Rabbit Hole and perhaps can no longer see that his systems are highly inexact, or at least presented in an inexact manner on the DVD, and for many a dead end, or worse, a problem inducing course of endeavor.

For me, in all honesty, if Mosconi hisself came back from the grave and told me this was the greatest thing since sliced bread I’d tell him to go back and take a nap. This one is not a keeper, for me, and if anyone wants to buy a lightly used copy for $30, shipping included, please PM me for a PayPal address.

Lou Figueroa
all the above
JMHO, of course

Seriously can someone show me and quote or high-lite in bold any decent points made in this review? because it reads like a bunch of rambling nonsense to me :confused:
 
A 6.5mm pivot, 8" from the bridge = a lot more mm at the grip location. Say an inch? That would be very noticeable and awkward for me.

With a 58" cue, if your bridge length is about 10" and you pivot the tip of the cue 1/4" (one-half tip), the back end of the cue moves about 1.2". Depending on where your back-hand grip is, your hand may move a bit less than that.

If your bridge length is about 5" (as CTE calls for on some shots) and you pivot the tip of that same cue 1/4", the back end of the cue moves more than 2 1/2".
 
I think there is a big difference between 1) pivoting to center cue ball. and then, misalligned, taking practice strokes and shooting; and, 2) maintaining proper allignment, taking practice strokes and then when pulling the trigger slightly swooping the cue off to one side or the other. Backhand english happens in a single swoop, not allowing time for one to feel awkward. JMHO

What you describe above for back-hand english is the swooping or dynamic form of the technique, where the sideways movement of the back hand occurs during the stroke at the cue ball. Some experts recommend against this form of BHE, believing it is less precise or less consistent.

Perhaps the more common form of BHE is to align oneself perfectly for a center-ball hit on the cue ball and to then move the back hand sideways the amount desired for the english. Additional warm-up strokes may be taken on this new cue line, and the body can even be rearranged slightly to aid in stroking straight on this new line.
 
Seriously can someone show me and quote or high-lite in bold any decent points made in this review? because it reads like a bunch of rambling nonsense to me :confused:

If Lou's post seems like "rambling nonsense," I probably can't help. I don't know a thing about CTE; however, based on Lou's review, I remain uninterested. Any aiming system that was suddenly developed (especially one that requires continual clarification), after this many years of our sports existence, is automatically suspect with me.

Yukon Ed
 
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