To spin or not to spin that is the question

[Bigkahuna]

Spinning away

Well, I think as i am practicing on my table here I am just going to keep spinning away. :grin-devilish:

Thanks everyone for your perspective on this.:thumbup:

 

[whitewolf]

To spin or not to spin, that is the question.

For the 1st two years I used no english. But, IMHO, you have to be able to do both. My game improved by learning English.

If I may tell you a story: This weekend they took my rails away to tighten the pockets, so while waiting I set up two pillows and a pocket in between them.

I then practiced hitting straight in shots for 2 hours one day and 2 hours the next day. Just for the heck of it I used every grip, stance, stroke, to see what worked best in NOT spinning the ball.

What I discovered was that my bridge was too long. I shortened it up to 6 to 8 inches (LOL - this is sort of normal), didn't think about anything else, and bingo I was popping balls in straight as an arrow.

I used to shoot great without any english, sometimes better than I do today, especially in straight pool. This makes the game SIMPLIER because you have a lot less choices. Using english requires a brand new mental set.

 

[B4IFURU18]

I think I see where we are going with this;

IMO, you can obtain cue ball position by using speed control and force follow/force draw for many if not most postion shots.

...but its much easier using english.(not crazy-english, just a tip here and there )

Much more reliable than Left/Right English, or a combo of English and follow/draw.

The moral is that your consistency will improve if you can obtain position without English side spin.

Following your logic, your consistency with side spin will also improve if you use side spin.:grin:

 

[Cory in DC]

With inside English, you need to adjust your aim slightly to account for throw (in the CIT direction), assuming you have already accounted for squirt and swerve. However, the amount of throw will be less with inside English than if no English were used, and the amount of throw won't vary very much with the exact amount of English applied. With outside English, the amount (AND DIRECTION!) of throw can vary quite a bit with slight changes in the amount of English. FYI, I have of articles with lots of examples on these topics here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles​

Regards,
Dave

From your link:

# The amount of throw with IE can be much more consistent than with outside English (OE) if the amount of English varies a little. In other words, the amount of throw varies more with tip placement for OE vs. IE. This might explain why some people prefer using IE on cut shots ... because they can better anticipate and adjust for the amount of throw.
# The least amount of throw, and the most throw consistency, occurs with fast IE shots.​

I've preferred to cut this way (fast with inside) on extreme cut shots for a long time...now I know why!

Another advantage is that a lot of very thin cut shots involve cutting a ball that's a bit off the long rail and 8 - 20" from the corner pocket. Outside english brings 1 and 2 rail scratches in the side into play, but inside makes the cue more or less travel back at 90 degrees from the rail (yes, you can beat the scratch without inside, but inside keeps that scratch out of play entirely).

On the other hand, if the ball is frozen to the rail then I usually go with a little outside unless the shape calls for inside. Go figure.

Cory

 

[Gurnee_Steve]

perfect position

I love to use spin but understand that it makes the shot tougher. If I don't need it, I don't use it. For me, I need to get away from always having the 'perfect position' shot mentality. Sometimes, less than perfect will still leave a good shot and runout.

When I strike the CB with my normal, average, stroke speed I can get the CB to hit the OB correctly and pocket the ball. When I need to hit it harder, the deflection is greater and the CB never 'comes back' on line to hit the OB right...never, that is, unless I compensate for the deflection. On the other hand, if I hit it too slowly, the CB arcs back on line and then some, sometimes missing the OB on the other side. I try to stay away from these and if I do use them I have to really think about how my cue tip will effect the CB and how the spin will throw the OB.

Also, let's say you've got a 45 degree cut on a ball along the rail. If the OB is on the rail, I'm not afraid to use some inside english because I know that I can hit rail first and still make the ball...a larger room for error. In this situation I stay away from outside english because the room for error gets smaller and the OB must be sturck exactly. On the other hand, if the OB is away from the rail, I stay away from the inside english but would not hesitate with the outside.

Bottom line, stay away from the difficult english shots unless 'perfect position' is a must.

 

[enzo]

There are times when I have stopped the ball dead, (no left or right movement at all) and I miss. Well, I did not hit center so the ball path was affected by throw from spin.

if the cb really stopped and there was spin, you actually cut the object ball slightly.

 

[enzo]

forgive me for not reading through the thread, but i am totally, 100% convinced that spin (outside english is what im really referring to) helps a player to pocket balls playing pool (ie cinching balls). i dont have any math to prove it, but i just know.... so there (sticking my tongue out). hope i addressed the right question.

 

[grindz]

two cents from a better armchair quarterback

Take Earl and Johnny's pool school. You have 2 diverse styles to listen to and choose from. Johnny prefers less english which if I correctly remember hearing that he feels gives him more consistent and reproducable results. Earl prefers using more english and his game IMO has a more artistic style.

There is no right answer, only varying schools of thought. I personally feel that the answer is, to a large extent, dependent on what game you play. Then there is the matter of your stroke, thought process and consistency to keep in mind. It just never ends..... JMHO

td

I'm so dizzy my head is spinnin' .....like a whirlpool it never ends....and it's you pool makin' it spin.....I'm so dizzy........

 

[9 on the snap]

I use a certain amout of side on most shots to get whitey where he needs to be, unless I don't need too. Then it's follow or draw my friend.

Joe

 

[SJDinPHX]

I am a firm believer that if you do not master squirt, throw, side spin and all the other intricacies of the game, you will never be a "complete" player.
I tend to take more of a Strickland approach to the game, than I do The Archer method. Both have been successful in their chosen way to play the game. But you can bet, when the shot demands excessive english, to obtain the desired results, Johnny will use it. His success with those types of shots may not be as good as Earl's because he has programmed himself differently. Games like one pocket or straight pool will call for more of these skills than 8, 9, or 10 ball. That is why most sraight shooters like JA and ES, have never gravitated towards these games. There have been very few player's who played ALL games at their highest level. Ed Kelly and Harold Worst to name a few. And they both used excessive english on almost every shot. Use it, or lose it. You must learn it.
Also, Efren likes to squirt it around a little too, doesn't he ?

Dick

 

[Colin Colenso]

Spin.

Pros use spin for one simple reason, it makes the game easier. Nobody can win consistently at the pro level, imo, without using side english extensively.

English allows better control of the balls when used wisely. It should be allowing you to hit in a good speed range and still stay on line within that range.

Let's say you have a cut shot angle sending the cueball to the rail. It is usually easier and more controllable to stun the cueball to the rail and use sidespin to move the ball off the rail at a wider angle than it is to use draw to widen that same angle. The draw will require more speed and the resulting angle is much more speed dependent, going into the rail and, and coming off it if the draw extends to the rail. If you have to move the ball a long way you will have to pound it. The englished shot will stay on line for a much wider variation of speeds.

The same applies to follow shots or using inside off of rails.

Also the more sticky the table is the more powerful side spin becomes while draw and follow at angles off rails gets more difficult.

Spot on Unknownpro!

These and other shots should be diagrammed and explained so players could begin to learn shots they'll need to be proficient at for advanced play using english.

The issue of speed control v backspin and variation with table conditions is a valuable observation.

Colin

Note: Diagram below shows a stun outside english versus stun draw of the same speed to go to the same location. The OE spin shot is easier to control and repeat with practice.

 

[Colin Colenso]

forgive me for not reading through the thread, but i am totally, 100% convinced that spin (outside english is what im really referring to) helps a player to pocket balls playing pool (ie cinching balls). i dont have any math to prove it, but i just know.... so there (sticking my tongue out). hope i addressed the right question.

There are two reasons players often use OE that I can think of, in terms of aiding the potting of balls.

1. Often beginners and intermediate level players point the cue and alignt toward the contact point. This results in aiming to undercut many shots. People also tend to just aim toward the center of a ball, perhaps to feel safe from missing the OB.

Anyway, that means they need to swoop and apply some OE to make many shots. This becomes a normal stroke for them to compensate for bad aiming.

2. If the CB is stunned (center ball hit) at low to medium speeds there can be significant Contact Induced Throw which can cause the pot to be undercut by a few degrees. A touch of OE on these shots make the pot angle the same as it would be for a firmer shot with follow or very firm shot with stun.

Center axis striking does not eliminate problems with throw. Speed and the degree of vertical spin on the CB changes the amounts of throw very significantly.

This video I made shows some of this variation in throw:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=D-xtzn4vbiQ

Colin

 

[Bigkahuna]

Spinning

I have heard this "knowing how to play the game the right way" from some of the older guys out there. Referring to how much a lot of players are spinning the ball. Perhaps there was less spinning done in older times due to either just the games that were played or maybe the differences in equipment????????? Seems like most of the anti deflection technology out there really allow a player to spin more with less compensation for the squirt and deflection.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have heard this "knowing how to play the game the right way" from some of the older guys out there. Referring to how much a lot of players are spinning the ball. Perhaps there was less spinning done in older times due to either just the games that were played or maybe the differences in equipment????????? Seems like most of the anti deflection technology out there really allow a player to spin more with less compensation for the squirt and deflection.

Maybe those older guys weren't playing much 9-ball or maybe they just weren't so good at moving the CB around... or both.

Colin

 

[SeabrookMiglla]

as of now, i am more focused on using the proper stroke and speed to make shots. i think that spin is a necessity, but at this point in the game i am beginning to believe that it was something that it was something i was focused on too much.

in another couple of months, i may take back this comment. lol

this game is f'n weird

 

[TATE]

Your post brought back something I was taught about 40 yrs ago. Until I read your post it was something that I have grown accustomed to do without thought, but it so vividly made me remember, I'll share it. I'm just reminiscing here so if you want the short version just go to the last paragraph.

When I was 16 or 17 and beginning to get very serious about the game, I hung out at a pool room where the counter man would always shoot pool on table 1 by himself until someone needed help.

At the time he was about 65 or 70yrs old. The man would run hundreds of balls without a miss in between customers, phone calls, distractions, whatever. I'd sit for hours and watch him.

Now and again he'd get out of line and pop in long nearly straight shots in the heart of the pocket. This one day I said to him, that's one of the shots that stops me all the time, I seem to alway spin them out without realizing it.

He said to me, when you know you have a problem with a shot fix it. He said he did the same thing often until he began using ever so slightly a touch of inside english on those shots to (as he called it) "straighten them out". Since then it's become an important tool in the toolbox. FWIW.

There were several instructors years back who taught similar ideas. The word of mouth thing in pool was huge. It was tough to trace back a concept to any one individual. Usually this information was sold, not given.

Now information and misinformation travels at the speed of light.

 

[naji]

I am reading my "Inside Pool" mag this morning and Bob Henning has an article titled "Points of Reference". The article is really about hitting the center of the cue ball.

Now if you do not understand collision induced throw or spin induced throw please do not comment in this thread. I don't mean any disrespect but if you do not know what these terms are then please get a book and understand them before reading this.

Nowadays, I am a seven in the APA and an A in any other leagues. When I was really getting started in developing the skills I have I would never use spin. I felt there were too many variables like chalk on the cue, scratched up balls, oil from fingers, aiming errors, squirt, throw and on and on. Back then I was a really good shot maker and had very sound fundementals due to some lessons I took from a pool hall owner. I was able to accurately pocket balls and was reasonable, (due to good speed control) at getting good position. My advise to anyone who asked was that spin was the death of all accurate shots. This is still my advise today for most players that play at less than A speed. Usually these players have far more to work on before using spin. Like just hitting the center of the ball usually due to poor stroke mechanics. I myself did not start using spin until I became a six in the APA.

I guess my question here stems from hitting the center of the cue ball. I myself practice long straight in shots. Sometimes, I practice to scratch by following the ball, (try that on a long straight in). There are times when I have stopped the ball dead, (no left or right movement at all) and I miss. Well, I did not hit center so the ball path was affected by throw from spin. So at my level I still fail to hit center ball at times and I am sure I can attribute this to not hitting center. However there are also times when I can attribute a miss to an error when inentionaly spinning the ball. I use spin at times nearly half the time. Obviously, cue ball control is the first reason, but then there is taking advantage of a little throw instead of a slight cut when I need to kill the cue ball and then correcting for collision induced throw and a couple of shots I am just comfortable with using spin. This all ads up to questioning myself as to how often I am spinning the ball? Or Perhaps, I should be questioning not spinning the ball? If I error at time not hitting center perhaps i should just spin more? Perhaps I just start putting some scotch tape on my tip and start practicing that way no spin no draw just rolling follow?

Just putting this out there for discussion. What do you all think? :thumbup: :bash: Some times I hate this game sometimes I love it!

Sorry i did not read all the responses, but one thing that might help tremendously is to flatten your tip, forget the dime and nickel shape, just flat or very close to flat. You can try this with a house cue or a cheap cue. Best if you use medium to soft tip. Try this kind of tip shape on combo shots you will be amazed, that is if your stroke is good.
Again i apologize if someone already said this.
Like to know the results! Thanks.