To taper or not to taper...that is the question!

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I posted this in the Main Forum to get an idea of what the "players" think, so now I'll get the "makers" to explain what is really happening. :)

Aloha all,

Having laid off pool for so many years, up until recently, I still experiment around trying new things in the hope of regaining my eye and stroke somewhat.

For MANY years I played with a 14mm tip and I could play position and handle the cue ball with just as much spin and flair as anybody else. MOST of the time, spin ISN’T needed very much unless you are trying to get back in line anyway and the 14mm provides a much "smoother" ride (kind of like comparing a Cadillac to a Dodge Colt). I could masse the ball as well as anyone (anyone notice masse cues are usually 14mm?) and draw the ball from end-to-end and back on slow 9-foot tables and during one tournament a guy started calling me “Monster Stroke” and kept telling everyone I was doing it with a “bazooka” instead of a cue.

NOW, many years later, I am attempting to come even close to what I once could do with I considered “ease”.

Yesterday I was playing with a custom 13mm “regular” shaft for a while and then my custom Predator 314-2 FAT shaft before I decided to try my Adams production shaft on the same Titlist butt. This shaft came with an Adams HOF Balabushka cue and has a very “distinct” SHORT taper before the cue starts “widening” up rather quickly at about 8 inches from the tip. There is no comparison between the tapers of those shafts with this one…they both have LONG Pro tapers.

I think the shorter tapers are more “old school” and some suggest that they allow for more “precision” in cue ball control. That is up for debate. I know when I ordered cues from Richard Black many years ago, he used a taper that was 8-10” and he claims that is what Balabushka used. I spoke to him just a month or so back and he reminded me of that when I was discussing getting another cue made.

LONG story, SHORT!

When I started using this shaft yesterday, my game went up quite a bit. The tip is a bit less than 13mm and I originally was going to return it because I ordered it as 13mm and wasn’t really fond of the taper. I DON’T think the difference in my game was so much the diameter of the tip as it was the “taper” of the shaft.

The short taper allowed me to “feel” just how far my cue was passing my bridge because I could “feel” the difference in taper when the cue passed through my fingers. I think “THIS” let me keep MOST of my strokes consistent because I was using the “SAME” amount of follow-through on MOST of my shots. When you use a longer Pro taper, you can’t really feel “how far” the shaft has passed until the shot is done. With the shorter taper you have the ability to feel your stroke “distance” a bit more as the cue is passing through your fingers…IMHO.

When I had my "last remaining" 14mm restored by McDermoot they had to "shave" it down to 13mm to get it "evened" out a bit from the use and fine sanding I had put on it. The cue and shaft are 30 years old.

I am thinking of getting another shaft made to my 14mm specs that I orginally used with Richard Black, back as far as 1978 when he made my first custom cue. My "original" discovery of playing with 14mm shafts came from a road player from Texas who was the "greatest" road player I ever saw when it came to controlling the cue ball on BOTH bar tables and large tables.



Anybody else got any thoughts on tapers and/or 14mm shafts?

Happy New Year to all.
 
I think the smaller tips lend themselves well as visual aiming aids in that you can more easily see where you're going to hit the cue ball there by adding precision to your cue control. Anything that removes variables from the mechanics of your game will help. As far as length of stroke, you may want to see what Ray Ceulemanns can do with a cue ball and his follow through is very short. Personally, my follow through is around an inch yet I can draw the ball from table length back to my end of the table again on less than clean cloth.
 
I posted this in the Main Forum to get an idea of what the "players" think, so now I'll get the "makers" to explain what is really happening. :)

Aloha all,

Having laid off pool for so many years, up until recently, I still experiment around trying new things in the hope of regaining my eye and stroke somewhat.

For MANY years I played with a 14mm tip and I could play position and handle the cue ball with just as much spin and flair as anybody else. MOST of the time, spin ISN’T needed very much unless you are trying to get back in line anyway and the 14mm provides a much "smoother" ride (kind of like comparing a Cadillac to a Dodge Colt). I could masse the ball as well as anyone (anyone notice masse cues are usually 14mm?) and draw the ball from end-to-end and back on slow 9-foot tables and during one tournament a guy started calling me “Monster Stroke” and kept telling everyone I was doing it with a “bazooka” instead of a cue.

NOW, many years later, I am attempting to come even close to what I once could do with I considered “ease”.

Yesterday I was playing with a custom 13mm “regular” shaft for a while and then my custom Predator 314-2 FAT shaft before I decided to try my Adams production shaft on the same Titlist butt. This shaft came with an Adams HOF Balabushka cue and has a very “distinct” SHORT taper before the cue starts “widening” up rather quickly at about 8 inches from the tip. There is no comparison between the tapers of those shafts with this one…they both have LONG Pro tapers.

I think the shorter tapers are more “old school” and some suggest that they allow for more “precision” in cue ball control. That is up for debate. I know when I ordered cues from Richard Black many years ago, he used a taper that was 8-10” and he claims that is what Balabushka used. I spoke to him just a month or so back and he reminded me of that when I was discussing getting another cue made.

LONG story, SHORT!

When I started using this shaft yesterday, my game went up quite a bit. The tip is a bit less than 13mm and I originally was going to return it because I ordered it as 13mm and wasn’t really fond of the taper. I DON’T think the difference in my game was so much the diameter of the tip as it was the “taper” of the shaft.

The short taper allowed me to “feel” just how far my cue was passing my bridge because I could “feel” the difference in taper when the cue passed through my fingers. I think “THIS” let me keep MOST of my strokes consistent because I was using the “SAME” amount of follow-through on MOST of my shots. When you use a longer Pro taper, you can’t really feel “how far” the shaft has passed until the shot is done. With the shorter taper you have the ability to feel your stroke “distance” a bit more as the cue is passing through your fingers…IMHO.

When I had my "last remaining" 14mm restored by McDermoot they had to "shave" it down to 13mm to get it "evened" out a bit from the use and fine sanding I had put on it. The cue and shaft are 30 years old.

I am thinking of getting another shaft made to my 14mm specs that I orginally used with Richard Black, back as far as 1978 when he made my first custom cue. My "original" discovery of playing with 14mm shafts came from a road player from Texas who was the "greatest" road player I ever saw when it came to controlling the cue ball on BOTH bar tables and large tables.



Anybody else got any thoughts on tapers and/or 14mm shafts?

Happy New Year to all.

I started, for all intents and purposes, with a 12 1/2 because
that is what my straight from the factory Willie Hoppe came with.
Soon changed to a 14mm which I used for years<it's a long story>.
Now I use 13 or less, often quite a bit less. And there is no discernable
difference in my pocketing/stroke/control

As for taper - Gus Szanboti told me over the phone(rember telephones one
actually talked on) that his taper was 10 inches long, then increased by 1mm
at 15mm - then added that the first 10 inches was not even perfectly
straight, but increased so slightly it was hardly noticable.

Not to be overly critical but, you guys who can't tell where you are
striking the CB, or how far you are following thru... how do you ever
make a ball?

Dale
 
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Not to be overly critical but, you guys who can't tell where you are striking the CB, or how far you are following thru... how do you ever
make a ball?

Dale

Are you trying to tell me that "hitting the ball precisely as intended" is part of the game? :)

I think EVERYBODY makes a ball SOMETIME or another. It is the QUEST to CONTINUALLY make MORE that is the DRUG of people that gets addicted to pool. Why do you think people ask questions, seek instruction, and keep buying and changing pool equipment?

If it wasn't for the QUEST to improve, then some people are wasting a lot of time and money on remaining stagnant.

Aloha. :)
 
I started, for all intenst and purposes, with a 12 1/2 because
that is what my straight from the factory Willie Hoppe came with.
Soon changed to a 14mm which I used for years<it's a long story>.
Now I use 13 or less, often quite a bit less. And there is no discernable
difference in my pocketing/stroke/control

As for taper - Gus Szanbodi told me over the phone(rember telephones one
actually talked on) that his taper was 10 inches long, then increased by 1mm
at 15mm - then added that the first 10 inches was not even perfectly
straight, but increased so slightly it was hardly noticable.

Not to be overly critical but, you guys who can't tell where you are
striking the CB, or how far you are following thru... how do you ever
make a ball?

Dale
At the 15th inch spot you mean ( from the tip ).
It goes up by 1MM from 10" to 15" ?
 
Not to be overly critical but, you guys who can't tell where you are
striking the CB, or how far you are following thru... how do you ever
make a ball?

How do you keep saying what I'm thinking?
 
Are you trying to tell me that "hitting the ball precisely as intended" is part of the game? :)

I think EVERYBODY makes a ball SOMETIME or another. It is the QUEST to CONTINUALLY make MORE that is the DRUG of people that gets addicted to pool. Why do you think people ask questions, seek instruction, and keep buying and changing pool equipment?

If it wasn't for the QUEST to improve, then some people are wasting a lot of time and money on remaining stagnant.

Aloha. :)

From Wikipedia,

rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint.

Dale(who is trying to guide the quest in a more productive direction)
 
I DON’T think the difference in my game was so much the diameter of the tip as it was the “taper” of the shaft.

The short taper allowed me to “feel” just how far my cue was passing my bridge because I could “feel” the difference in taper when the cue passed through my fingers. I think “THIS” let me keep MOST of my strokes consistent because I was using the “SAME” amount of follow-through on MOST of my shots. When you use a longer Pro taper, you can’t really feel “how far” the shaft has passed until the shot is done. With the shorter taper you have the ability to feel your stroke “distance” a bit more as the cue is passing through your fingers…IMHO.

http://www.americanbilliardradio.com/

Listen to Scott Lee and and Randy Goettlicher at the 19:12 minute mark of this broadcast. It covers EXACTLY what I just spoke of. I didn't learn it from anybody...I learned it from experience and trial and error.

According to THEM, it is IMPERATIVE to know how far your "follow through" should be and it should be the SAME WAY consistently.

If the taper of the shaft will HELP you do this CONSISTENTLY then it may be something for people to think about when selecting a cue that fits their style.
 
http://www.americanbilliardradio.com/

Listen to Scott Lee and and Randy Goettlicher at the 19:12 minute mark of this broadcast. It covers EXACTLY what I just spoke of. I didn't learn it from anybody...I learned it from experience and trial and error.

According to THEM, it is IMPERATIVE to know how far your "follow through" should be and it should be the SAME WAY consistently.

If the taper of the shaft will HELP you do this CONSISTENTLY then it may be something for people to think about when selecting a cue that fits their style.

You don't need the taper of the shaft to tell you how far your follow through is. Your grip hand's finish point tells you that ( besides the tip's end point ).

On real conical shafts, following through is harder with a tight bridge.
That's why most like a slight taper to the middle of the shaft.
2MM taper to the middle of the shaft is on the stiffer side these days.
 
Exactly what I was thinking. If you hold the cue in the same place and stand the same way every time (excepting when the game dictates otherwise), you're stroke should end in the same place every time regardless of shaft taper.
 
Exactly what I was thinking. If you hold the cue in the same place and stand the same way every time (excepting when the game dictates otherwise), you're stroke should end in the same place every time regardless of shaft taper.

I will AGREE with you 100% on all counts and that is when you are practiced enough to be able to do it consistently.

I'm saying the taper may help as a "reminder" or "learning aid" until one is AT or above the level you mention.

If we get to the level that we DON'T need a reminder, is it STILL not a GOOD idea to have that "reminder" in our arsenal? Isn't the purpose of the PSR to keep players "reminded" of what they should do on each shot?

I have a VERY good memory...almost TOO GOOD I have been told on NUMEROUS occasions. I was TRAINED to memorize things. Yet, I still set reminders in my e-mail calendars and stuff. I may NOT need it to remember my meeting, but it pops up and "reminds" me just in case I have a brain fart.

The SAME theory could be applied to Luther Lassiter's use of a red line on the ferrule or end of his shaft. Did he need that? It wasn't something he did because he was fond of red. He did it because it "reminded" him which side of his shaft was "UP" so he could ensure that he was using the shaft in the SAME manner on EACH shot. Bob Meucci later made shafts with a Dot on the top so you could determine which side of the shaft was most "consistent".

It kept him CONSISTENT. Did he erase the little line when he was world champion? NO. He still kept it as a "reminder". If Luther likes reminders, then so do I.

Luther is the Teacher. :)
 
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I will AGREE with you 100% on all counts and that is when you are practiced enough to be able to do it consistently.

I'm saying the taper may help as a "reminder" or "learning aid" until one is AT or above the level you mention.

If we get to the level that we DON'T need a reminder, is it STILL not a GOOD idea to have that "reminder" in our arsenal? Isn't the purpose of the PSR to keep players "reminded" of what they should do on each shot?

I have a VERY good memory...almost TOO GOOD I have been told on NUMEROUS occasions. I was TRAINED to memorize things. Yet, I still set reminders in my e-mail calendars and stuff. I may NOT need it to remember my meeting, but it pops up and "reminds" me just in case I have a brain fart.

The SAME theory could be applied to Luther Lassiter's use of a red line on the ferrule or end of his shaft. Did he need that? It wasn't something he did because he was fond of red. He did it because it "reminded" him which side of his shaft was "UP" so he could ensure that he was using the shaft in the SAME manner on EACH shot. Bob Meucci later made shafts with a Dot on the top so you could determine which side of the shaft was most "consistent".

It kept him CONSISTENT. Did he erase the little line when he was world champion? NO. He still kept it as a "reminder". If Luther likes reminders, then so do I.

Luther is the Teacher. :)

And how much taper do you want on that area ?
And how long ?
From what point to what point ?
 
And how much taper do you want on that area ?
And how long ?
From what point to what point ?

Thank you for responding. THAT is what I'm going to ATTEMPT to figure out, now that I think it may improve MY game. I will let you know when I have experimented a bit. I'm going to clean up my shafts today and play some tomorrow and will let you know.

I still think a "straight" taper for the first few inches is a MUST for me because it allows the cue to move through my bridge without binding. However, I think at the point the "straight" taper ends there needs to be enough of a "flair" that it lets you KNOW that you are at the END of the taper (which I think should be the end of your NORMAL follow through on MOST shots).

I just took a picture of all three shafts I use for my regular playing cue, but it is hard to capture what I'm talking about. If you see the shafts in person you can see the difference if you are looking, but if you are playing with it you will IMMEDIATELY feel the difference.

Thank you once again for asking.
 
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On real conical shafts, following through is harder with a tight bridge.
That's why most like a slight taper to the middle of the shaft.
2MM taper to the middle of the shaft is on the stiffer side these days.

I agree with you on that too...I prefer to use a tight closed bridge on most of my shots (old school style). A conical shaft isn't for me, even though I think they hit good. They just don't "fit" my style of bridge or stroke.
 
If you think a sharp transition from one taper to another is what will get you 'to the next level', I have a bridge to sell you.
 
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