TOI is English/Spin

West Point 1987 said:
Okay, you can call it Touch of Inside English...but the whole point is that the amount is so small that there's no real inside English effect. The collision with the OB kills all spin and the CB rolls true after contact on a predictable angle. It also kills a lot of the energy at the collision so the CB doesn't run away from you. Once you get used to it, it cinches cut shots and even most banks (especially back cut banks) so strong it's spooky.

Most folks debating either side of this are over-analyzing it. It's really just a highly refined center-ball technique that reduces/cancels post collision spin and avoids run away CBs. It also forces you to hit the CB much more accurately which is worth the price of admission by itself. :smile:
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So, it's either a extreme center ball shot, or a minor 1/8 tip English shot. What difference does it make. Both examples are correct. I mean, if you are hitting off center, it's English. And half will call it that, and the TOI followers will call it center ball. But the term is TOI, thus "touch of inside"... yeah, inside English. Hello !!!

I use inside English, not a "touch" but more of a "pinch" when I'm back cutting a ball to keep the object ball off the rail. Is that a TOI? Don't know, don't care. But POI (Pinch of Inside) works for me. But when someone asks, yeah, I tell'em I use a 1/4 tip of inside English. I'm not going to start saying, "no, I just use a 1/4 tip of offset center ????
 
BeiberLvr said:
Put the CB on the head spot and OB in the center of the table.

Line up center to center, and get down on the shot using TOI (we'll say to the right).

Now, have a friend remove the OB from the table. After it's out of the way, shoot the CB into the rail.



If you've been playing pool for more than a day, then you don't even need to physically do this to know the CB will come off to the right after contacting the rail due to hitting the CB off center.

CJ has said countless times that TOI is not the same as english.
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It depends on how you stroke the cueball. I could use a TOI to the right as in your example and have the cueball come off the rail to the left.
 
When using the TOI we are aligning to the center of the object ball on most shots

mcrisp said:
I was asking Beiber if we watched the DVD'S , sorry for not being clear.
TOI is a great tool to have , I use it
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I could take the position that using "center" is also english because it's spinning. These things are understood because we know there are no "knuckle balls" in pool, so every shot has some type of spin (over, under, side, or a combination).

The 'Touch of Inside' is performed by hitting the cue ball a HAIR (Touch) to the inside of center. The DVD shows why this is so effective, it increases the margin of error by producing the '3 Part Pocket Zone'......this is the same principle as drawing the golf ball and aligning to the right of the fairway or green. It's also like fading the golf ball and aligning to the left side of the fairway or green.

When using the TOI we are aligning to the center of the object ball on most shots (cut shots are aligned to the edge opposite the pocket). If we decide to use "inside english" the alignment changes and it's no longer "pure TOI".

This is easy for the practitioner to do because they are already very familar with the inside of the cue ball and how the deflection actually works to favor the inside of the pocket zone (this doesn't change when using inside english, although the alignment does slightly).

'the TOI GAME is the teacher'
 
West Point 1987 said:
Okay, you can call it Touch of Inside English...but the whole point is that the amount is so small that there's no real inside English effect. The collision with the OB kills all spin and the CB rolls true after contact on a predictable angle. It also kills a lot of the energy at the collision so the CB doesn't run away from you. Once you get used to it, it cinches cut shots and even most banks (especially back cut banks) so strong it's spooky.

Most folks debating either side of this are over-analyzing it. It's really just a highly refined center-ball technique that reduces/cancels post collision spin and avoids run away CBs. It also forces you to hit the CB much more accurately which is worth the price of admission by itself. :smile:
Click to expand...

So, it's the common or garden stun shot?

Finally, i know what TOI is!
 
don't hold that (TIT) against me like the bartender did. LoL

victorl said:
The inside spin is just enough to offset the outside spin that the cue ball gains from contact with the object ball, so the cue ball is not spinning AFTER it contacts the object ball and takes perfect angles off the rail.
You can't shoot TOI without an object ball becuase there is no inside or outside.
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That's correct, the term "Touch of Inside" was used by Mike Lebron describing how Efren Reyes played, and was first coined in Tampa Florida by a friend of mine that owned a pool room there named Bill. 'Omaha John' called it "Floating the Cue Ball" and I referred to it as 'The Inside Touch" (TIT) - just didn't think that would be an appropriate acronym. :eek:

Tonight I just won $2000 in less than 2 minutes in a break and run contest. I have to admit I didn't use TOI on EVERY shot, there was one I used a THE INSIDE TOUCH. ;) But don't hold that (TIT) against me like the bartender did. LoL :groucho:

99-Country-Bartender_thumb.jpg
 
wayne said:
It depends on how you stroke the cueball. I could use a TOI to the right as in your example and have the cueball come off the rail to the left.
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Then you aren't hitting where you aimed on the cue ball. It's as simple as that.
 
It seems to me that any time you strike the cue ball left of right of the vertical axis (it doesn`t matter how much), you will be imparting a proportional amount of side spin on the cue ball. That has always been called english.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
So, it's either a extreme center ball shot, or a minor 1/8 tip English shot. What difference does it make. Both examples are correct. I mean, if you are hitting off center, it's English. And half will call it that, and the TOI followers will call it center ball. But the term is TOI, thus "touch of inside"... yeah, inside English. Hello !!!

I use inside English, not a "touch" but more of a "pinch" when I'm back cutting a ball to keep the object ball off the rail. Is that a TOI? Don't know, don't care. But POI (Pinch of Inside) works for me. But when someone asks, yeah, I tell'em I use a 1/4 tip of inside English. I'm not going to start saying, "no, I just use a 1/4 tip of offset center ????
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This is exactly how I read it too. I don't get it, LOL....

Am I the only one around here that uses a shit ton of english at times (I spin pretty much everything)? I go all over the ball and rarely use a partial tip. I should apply less and give that a whirl for a while.
 
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I'm going to start selling DVD's showing that the Touch of Break Stroke Draw is the best way to shoot every shot. It's not English in any sense. It's a way of life. I've studied Wushu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, & American Streetfighting, so trust me when I say how well my technique works. If you don't believe me, I'll offer my phone number for you to call me on the weekends and I will enlighten you how well TOBSD works.

President Obama is seen here using TOBSD

obama.jpg


So act now! I'll even throw in Biker Bill's 10 dollar challenge! Witness the amazing feat of Bill running 11 balls to win it all!!!
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Your demonstration proves that TOI is a touch of inside english.:shrug: CJ's claim has always been that this touch of inside cancels out collision induced spin so that the ball has no spin after contact with the object ball. And then there is the 3-part pocket system thing which we don't want to have repeated yet again, please.

But let me ask you this, and I am asking everyone here, not just the op. Say you have a 3/4 ball shot diagonally across the entire length of the table. What is easier: Aiming the shot normally with center ball or aiming it straight on and then adding the precise amount of english and speed to squirt the cueball into the correct target area. Which shot requires more precision, more speed control etc...Think about that for a minute. Can you imagine the precise tip placement needed for a tight pocket or even 1/2 pocket shot of this kind? You have zero margin for error on both tip position and stroke speed. You let up on your stroke you miss, you miss the tip position by a hair, you miss. This kind of aiming is not increasing your margin of error, it hugely decreases it, by making speed a factor and because even the tinyest offset from center will squirt the cueball out quite a bit. You have to guess the exact combination of tip offset and speed, and we're not even talking about 1/4 tips here, we're talking about 1/16 tips...Most people are not used to dealing in such tiny increments of tip position, they may aspire to, but that's about it. I personally have no experience with 1/16 of a tip offset ball reactions, and I doubt most others have either. 1/4 a tip with an 11,75 diameter shaft is plenty challenging as an increment of tip offset. I don't think I'm alone in finding fixed tip offsets like 1 tip right much more easily predictable and manageable than hairs withs...
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A lot of this discussion is mired in differing perceptions and our resulting descriptions. I know CJ and others will say it's just Center to Center or Center to Edge aim points when using TOI. That's really not aim point but alignment when stepping into the shot. My actual aim reference is literally a hair thick. If I'm missing I can adjust one of three variables: offset (more or less inside), stick acceleration, or aim. I've found that adjusting with more or less inside is VERY difficult and can get me lost (as you indicated, anything less than a 1/4 tip is very hard to judge). I just stick with 1/8 inside and adjust via ever so slight aim adjustments or stick speed.

I've been using TOI for about three years now, and I don't notice the offset (unless I consciously make an effort to see it, it looks like center CB). I also have calibrated it through repetition so that instead of focusing intently on trying to aim just a hair thick, I'm looking at the actual intended contact point, just like I did before TOI. Occasionally, usually after a lay off, I have to spend an hour or so recalibrating the offset/relation to the conventional alignment; but it comes right back.

So why would I bother with this at all? I notice two significant benefits right away. My CB is much easier to control, it just creeps into the intended position; that's especially beneficial when your contact with the OB is on the thinner spectrum and the CB has lots of energy left over after contact. The last thing you want is running English after contact making it worse. The other benefit is the effort to shade to the inside increases your precision on hitting the CB where you intend, virtually eliminating any tendency to steer the shot or swipe the CB. If I aimed center CB, I could never be sure if my cue struck 1/8 tip inside or 1/8 tip outside. I rattle the shot and may have misjudged one of three or four factors. By anchoring my stick line 1/8 inside, I KNOW I hit it to the inside or dead center CB. So my miss is in one direction. That's what is meant by increasing margin of error. If I'm aiming at center pocket and attempting to hit center CB, I could hit a touch left or right of center CB, then my margin of error is half a pocket in either direction. If I aim thick, favoring one side of the pocket, I have the whole pocket in one direction to error toward. The whole idea is to eliminate variables, instead of adding them.

Do I align with outside at all? You bet. I have to drag some shots across the table, or stun stuff just like anyone else. The TOI we're debating just replaces center CB alignment on anything other than straight in stop shots or when I need to use outside to get where I need to.
 
I like this post but I don't know about "perfect angles" (maybe for CJ). :smile:!
JoeyA

victorl said:
The inside spin is just enough to offset the outside spin that the cue ball gains from contact with the object ball, so the cue ball is not spinning AFTER it contacts the object ball and takes perfect angles off the rail.
You can't shoot TOI without an object ball because there is no inside or outside.
Click to expand...
 
CJ Wiley said:
That's correct, the term "Touch of Inside" was used by Mike Lebron describing how Efren Reyes played, and was first coined in Tampa Florida by a friend of mine that owned a pool room there named Bill. 'Omaha John' called it "Floating the Cue Ball" and I referred to it as 'The Inside Touch" (TIT) - just didn't think that would be an appropriate acronym. :eek:

Tonight I just won $2000 in less than 2 minutes in a break and run contest. I have to admit I didn't use TOI on EVERY shot, there was one I used a THE INSIDE TOUCH. ;) But don't hold that (TIT) against me like the bartender did. LoL :groucho:

99-Country-Bartender_thumb.jpg
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Pictures like this will make SJD your best friend
 
Just stop it CJ. You are going to kill your admirers with knowledge and pretty soon they will want to know how much is in your bank account and will be begging to take a peek at your little black book. :D:D:D

JoeyA

CJ Wiley said:
That's correct, the term "Touch of Inside" was used by Mike Lebron describing how Efren Reyes played, and was first coined in Tampa Florida by a friend of mine that owned a pool room there named Bill. 'Omaha John' called it "Floating the Cue Ball" and I referred to it as 'The Inside Touch" (TIT) - just didn't think that would be an appropriate acronym. :eek:

Tonight I just won $2000 in less than 2 minutes in a break and run contest. I have to admit I didn't use TOI on EVERY shot, there was one I used a THE INSIDE TOUCH. ;) But don't hold that (TIT) against me like the bartender did. LoL :groucho:

99-Country-Bartender_thumb.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Patrick Johnson said:
CJ (and everybody), I apologize for this post - I'm beginning to annoy myself with this dead horse beating. I'll give it a rest.

pj
chgo
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Keep beating the horse and CJ will keep bringing it back to life so you can beat it again.

The Dead Horse Is The Teacher?
 
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