It might be 1/2 the time...LOL
TOI vs TOO - CJ vs Mike Sigel
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It might be 1/2 the time...LOL
Players definitely shouldn't use centre-ball on every shot. Advocating one approach to every shot is ridiculous - you should use whatever spin is necessary for position, and if no spin is necessary for position then you shouldn't use any. Deflection and throw are variables which you have to learn to account for in pool, but not to the extent that you throw those variables into the mix for no (good) reason.
Someone linked John Schmidt and Corey Deuel talking about aiming systems recently, and I think John made some relevant points to this discussion - the first being that cue ball deflection makes this game more difficult than it would be without it. Playing centre-ball when you have that option cuts out this problem. The second point was that you can find great players advocating all kinds of crazy things because they've convinced themselves that there is something to it, when it really makes no sense.
The fact is, by far the most important element in attaining a high level of skill is dedicated practice. A nut with some wacky ideas about how he gets the balls in the holes that hits a million balls and works on his game will be a far stronger player than the guy that doesn't play 8 hours a day, but can see that rubbing your left nut before every shot doesn't actually help you get better shape.
Other sports aren't really relevant here, but in tennis playing a shot with topspin increases your margin for error, where a slice decreases this margin. In pool, sidespin is more like a slice than anything else. Curving balls needlessly will not increase accuracy in pool.
I know it does not sound right but it is unique style you have to live it to know it, completely different that what you think, it is great especially if your shooting is not consistent when shooting hard or soft
Well if I'm misunderstanding things then that's cool. I'll always be skeptical of stuff like this, but if it's helping your game then go for it! I just think that ultimately there is no substitute for hours on the table, and every other little secret in pool is really insignificant next to that fact.
I agree with long hours, but doing like I did 30 years of doing it wrong it don't get better unless you get and try all tips and tricks outside. Two choices, either take 30 years to figure it out, or bite the dust and crush the ego and ask some one to help, unfortunately I did not crush my ego and still trying to figure it all out.
Well said, Naji. The acronyms for TOI and TOO are misleading. The techniques are equated to putting english on the cue ball. Putting english on the cue ball is spinning the cue ball.
I hit most of my TOI shots with a stun or non-rolling cue ball if possible. I try to have the collision with the object ball wipe off any spin I've put on the cue ball.
I use outside english when the shot calls for it and inside english when the shot calls for it. I use TOI to kill the cue ball as I move around the table. No extra rails for me.
Best,
Mike
That is what I try to do also. I prefer to try to "float" a "dead cue ball" around the table until English is necessary to get back in line.
One thing I am loving now is playing on a SLOWER table rather than the super-fast ones that are like playing bumper pool. With the slower table, my stroke has improved tremendously.
With the slow table, I can POUND balls in the hole while "floating" the cue ball. This allows you to hit the ball with a STROKE on every shot...not just little bunts and push shots. When you are able to accelerate on your hits, you can "stun" or "kill" the ball a lot easier than on a fast table with fast rails.
This is the way the game was played years ago when the tables were slower and it wasn't as easy to move the ball around the table as it is today.
I was watching some Youtube videos of old school matches and you can see that the players had to hit the balls quite a bit harder than you do today.
The game was more exciting to me in those days. They played 2F9B on slower tables which made for a lot of shots that required "POWER" strokes to get position. I loved the sound of the balls when they hit the pockets with "authority"...that always caused the lookers to see who was hitting the balls.
IMHO, pool today is no where as fun to play or watch as it was years ago.
I came back after a 20 year layoff and the first thing I noticed was the faster cloth and live rails. In addition, the balls bounce a lot more and throw less when clean.
Some tables are like playing on glass. I watch players slow roll the balls around the table rarely go for anything more than a soft spin shot. We used to play with soft tips, but a hard tip is better for less speed. The soft tips would get a bunch of spin with a maple shaft. The LD shafts toned that down, too. :frown:
Best,
Mike
Some tables are like playing on glass. I watch players slow roll the balls around the table rarely go for anything more than a soft spin shot. We used to play with soft tips, but a hard tip is better for less speed. The soft tips would get a bunch of spin with a maple shaft. The LD shafts toned that down, too. :frown:
Best,
Mike
..this means they NEVER know for sure why they're missing balls
Yes, you and many players understand the TOI Technique and it shows in your descriptions. It's always evident when someone doesn't know what they're communicating when they refer to the "Touch of Inside" as "spin".
TOI simply a way to favor a side of the cue ball to "cut" the object ball slightly more. When cutting the ball to the right, a player (using TOI) cues the ball slightly to the right...when cutting the ball to the left, you simply cue the ball slightly to the left.
Of course there's a little bit of "spin," but what most players don't "real eyes" is they're also putting a slight bit of spin on the cue ball unconsciously when they "think" they're using "center"......this means they NEVER know for sure why they're missing balls and they often under cut shots......undercutting shots is a sure sign of a mediocre player.
The "Pro Side" is always the OVER cut side of the pocket, because it gives them the best chance to get "safe" in case a shot doesn't hit the pocket. Creating margin of error is done with the tip and cue ball, not the pocket, and you simply can't create this type of "zone" without favoring one side of center.
I choose the inside of center because that's the side of the cue ball that actually hits the object ball to create a "cut". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, you and many players understand the TOI Technique and it shows in your descriptions. It's always evident when someone doesn't know what they're communicating when they refer to the "Touch of Inside" as "spin".
TOI simply a way to favor a side of the cue ball to "cut" the object ball slightly more. When cutting the ball to the right, a player (using TOI) cues the ball slightly to the right...when cutting the ball to the left, you simply cue the ball slightly to the left.
Of course there's a little bit of "spin," but what most players don't "real eyes" is they're also putting a slight bit of spin on the cue ball unconsciously when they "think" they're using "center"......this means they NEVER know for sure why they're missing balls and they often under cut shots......undercutting shots is a sure sign of a mediocre player.
The "Pro Side" is always the OVER cut side of the pocket, because it gives them the best chance to get "safe" in case a shot doesn't hit the pocket. Creating margin of error is done with the tip and cue ball, not the pocket, and you simply can't create this type of "zone" without favoring one side of center.
I choose the inside of center because that's the side of the cue ball that actually hits the object ball to create a "cut". 'The Game is the Teacher'
CJ, the only thing I don't understand is that you say that even if I dont put spin on a cut shot, I still am?!?! I have a practice routine I do which is shoot straight shots to warm up and make sure I can hit center! After I'm comfortable with my center hit I start cutting balls with just center! My train of thought on shooting is every shot is a straight shot! I don't think about "cutting" the ball! I only look at the shot, look where I want my cue ball to hit the object ball, and shoot,,, straight!!! Now, I understand that there is contact induced spin on the cue ball after it makes contact with object ball, but I feel real confident I don't spin the ball when I don't want to! In no way am I questioning your expertise on the game, I'm just confused with the statement! I'm a firm believer that the only way to become proficient at pocketing balls, is to practice, practice, practice! You need to shoot straight, which is the number 1 priority, but in the end,,, when your down on the shot, you have to be confident with what you see between the c.b. and o.b. as far as aiming, but once your happy with the picture,,,,, fire! Thanks for reading!
A touch of outside spin helps avoiding undesired throw effect...
TOI enables the player to consistently remove the "Under Cut" miss from their games
Yes, no matter how you choose to play it's essential to hit the cue ball straight, and to do that you must have a dependable stroke. Even more than just a dependable stroke it's also important to have a consistent pre shot routine that addresses every aspect of the shooting position AS YOU GO DOWN ON THE SHOT.
Some players don't "real eyes" why they are inconsistent because they really do have a straight stroke. The issue can be the alignment of the left side of the body, and that side is controlled by the positioning of the left foot (for right handed players). I connect the left foot exactly parallel to the TOI line established by the line of my cue. This means I can actually AIM with my left foot and target a particular part of the pocket.
The TOI enables the player to consistently remove the "Under Cut" miss from their games so they can create a pocket zone that starts at the "Inside" of the pocket and has 3 Parts to it (The 3 Part Pocket System)......using center you can only have 2, this creates a BIG advantage when you have essentially 25% more pocket to target. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, no matter how you choose to play it's essential to hit the cue ball straight, and to do that you must have a dependable stroke. Even more than just a dependable stroke it's also important to have a consistent pre shot routine that addresses every aspect of the shooting position AS YOU GO DOWN ON THE SHOT.
Some players don't "real eyes" why they are inconsistent because they really do have a straight stroke. The issue can be the alignment of the left side of the body, and that side is controlled by the positioning of the left foot (for right handed players). I connect the left foot exactly parallel to the TOI line established by the line of my cue. This means I can actually AIM with my left foot and target a particular part of the pocket.
The TOI enables the player to consistently remove the "Under Cut" miss from their games so they can create a pocket zone that starts at the "Inside" of the pocket and has 3 Parts to it (The 3 Part Pocket System)......using center you can only have 2, this creates a BIG advantage when you have essentially 25% more pocket to target. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Let me ask you this, if the table your playing on has 4 1/4" pockets, do you still consider the "3 part pocket system"? Maybe that's my problem, I work 60-80 hrs a week, so I never have a chance to go to a hall! I play on my tight table all the time, so maybe that's the underlying cause of my perception of shot making! Not much margin of error!
Is the foot parallel to the TOI line an individual preference or can it be slightly turned in to the shooter? Your stance is more open than mine. I have to stand less closed to get my foot in a parallel position. I can do it, but I haven't felt comfortable with it.
I also know that if something feels comfortable, you're probably doing it wrong. :grin:
Best,
Mike
human beings were not put on this earth to play pool so there's some techniques......
Yes, to play pool at your best level there's some discomfort involved.
Unfortunately human beings were not put on this earth to play pool so there's some techniques we use to acclimate {our bodies} to the game. I smile when I hear instructors advice students to do "what feels comfortable," because that's going to be wrong 99.9% of the time.
To answer your question, you can use your current foot position as the "base" or "neurtal position" as long as you position it that way EVERY TIME. The reason I plant my left foot parallel is so I can do it the same every time....and some days I may open it up a shade more at first to make sure I'm square to the "line of the shot".
When your confident that you are putting your left foot the same angle to the shot every time you can start opening it to overcut shots to the right, or closing it to over cut shots to the left. This is especially useful for long shots off the end rail because you will ALWAYS over cut the shot and get "safe" if you miss.
Yes, to play pool at your best level there's some discomfort involved.
Unfortunately human beings were not put on this earth to play pool so there's some techniques we use to acclimate {our bodies} to the game. I smile when I hear instructors advice students to do "what feels comfortable," because that's going to be wrong 99.9% of the time.
To answer your question, you can use your current foot position as the "base" or "neurtal position" as long as you position it that way EVERY TIME. The reason I plant my left foot parallel is so I can do it the same every time....and some days I may open it up a shade more at first to make sure I'm square to the "line of the shot".
When your confident that you are putting your left foot the same angle to the shot every time you can start opening it to overcut shots to the right, or closing it to over cut shots to the left. This is especially useful for long shots off the end rail because you will ALWAYS over cut the shot and get "safe" if you miss.
Physic being told here is dodgy
The claim that a touch of IE reduces throw is not true for most shots that are typically played in CJ's videos. i.e. Medium to firm shots at around 3/4 ball angle.
The image below was developed from the equations that have been developed to calculate throw at various angles, speeds and amount of spin. This is for a 3/4 ball potted to the left, so left of the zero line indicates amount of inside english. It shows that inside english throws the ball thicker than a pure sliding stun and a lot thicker than when outside english is applied. Heaps of IE will start to reduce the throw.
imho, TOI is mostly an aim perception effect, such that you think you're aiming fuller on a ball than you actually are.
Also mentioned on this page was a theory that softer tips and maple shafts increase spin... tip offset and swooping are the only proven determinants of amount of spin.
Another suggestion has been that TOI can decrease the CB travel distance for the same shot when not touching a rail. This is another myth, or at least, any variation is so insignificant that it's not worth trying. If someone wants to stop the CB as closely as possible, it is usually executed as a drag draw shot. Clearly, CJ's method encourages firm punching to position... this doesn't minimize CB travel, though his method is efficient when bouncing off rails and holding the CB, while still playing firm... as an alternative to soft outside english, which can tend to lose the CB.
The claim that a touch of IE reduces throw is not true for most shots that are typically played in CJ's videos. i.e. Medium to firm shots at around 3/4 ball angle.
The image below was developed from the equations that have been developed to calculate throw at various angles, speeds and amount of spin. This is for a 3/4 ball potted to the left, so left of the zero line indicates amount of inside english. It shows that inside english throws the ball thicker than a pure sliding stun and a lot thicker than when outside english is applied. Heaps of IE will start to reduce the throw.
imho, TOI is mostly an aim perception effect, such that you think you're aiming fuller on a ball than you actually are.
Also mentioned on this page was a theory that softer tips and maple shafts increase spin... tip offset and swooping are the only proven determinants of amount of spin.
Another suggestion has been that TOI can decrease the CB travel distance for the same shot when not touching a rail. This is another myth, or at least, any variation is so insignificant that it's not worth trying. If someone wants to stop the CB as closely as possible, it is usually executed as a drag draw shot. Clearly, CJ's method encourages firm punching to position... this doesn't minimize CB travel, though his method is efficient when bouncing off rails and holding the CB, while still playing firm... as an alternative to soft outside english, which can tend to lose the CB.
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It's interesting you mention the idea of overcutting and undercutting as I have noticed this tendency to the left and right. As a right hander, I've been undercutting shots to the right for some reason and overcutting to the left. I always thought it should be the opposite.
I'll definitely take a long, hard look at this. Sounds like it may just work. Thanks, CJ.
Best,
Mike
Note: The throw indicated in the above image is relative to a medium speed rolling pot. The orange represents about 2 inches undercut over 6 feet of OB travel, while the darker blue represents about 2 inches undercutting.