TOI's "Margin of Error" Myth Explained

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
TOI claims to "increase the margin of error" for shot-making by aiming to one side of the pocket and adding sidespin/squirt to the CB to cut the OB to center pocket.

It has been explained many times that this does nothing new or different compared with any side spin shot, but that doesn't seem obvious to everybody - so to illustrate here's a simple comparison of the aiming steps for a shot using TOI vs. "normal sidespin" methods. (For this example the tip is offset to the left for a left cut - it would be offset to the right for a right cut.)

pj
chgo

View attachment 21981
 

Attachments

  • TOI Myth.jpg
    TOI Myth.jpg
    34.1 KB · Views: 875
Last edited:
TOI claims to "increase the margin of error" for shot-making by aiming to one side of the pocket and adding sidespin/squirt to the CB to cut the OB to center pocket.

It has been explained many times that this does nothing new or different compared with any side spin shot, but that doesn't seem obvious to everybody - so to illustrate here's a simple comparison of the aiming steps for a shot using TOI vs. "normal sidespin" methods. (For this example the tip is offset to the left and the shot is aimed to the right, but that could also be reversed if necessary for the shot.)

pj
chgo

View attachment 21981

How do we factor in BHE, FHE, and parallel english ?
 
Those are just different methods of doing the same thing - adjusting where you aim (point your stick) in anticipation of squirt. They all produce the same result.

pj
chgo

In your example aren't you using touch up outside and not touch up inside
 
With normal side spin I aim (adjusting for squirt) and then drop in (placing my tip)... just like you say TOI does it. Just saying!


The difference I see is I only play a TOI when I need inside spin... if I use outside spin I'll adjust my aim accordingly then drop in on that.
 
Last edited:
That is rather misleading & a misrepresentation of the 'original' topic.

The past comparisons were TOI to an intended center hit on the CB.

CJ & I have both said that using outside english can accomplish a similar pocketing effect but with a completely different CB reaction after contact with the OB.

This is confusing the original topic. A typical tactic, change the parameters.

Each individual can make their own determinations &/or do their own investigations, experiments, tests, etc. & use their own critical thinking abilities.

An off center hit with the appropriate 'attached' plan for it allows for a mis hit on both sides of the intended CB target that can still pocket the ball.

If fact, one can aim for the ball to miss the pocket & then through the use of dynamic squirt or spin still pocket the ball. That can NOT be done with a center hit on the CB.

Everyone please make your own determinations.
 
In your example aren't you using touch up outside and not touch up inside
DTL:
I think you're right. The TOI is always to the same side as your cutting the OB
My example describes inside English - the CB is hit on the left side and the OB cuts to the left (because the CB squirts to the right).

pj
chgo
 
I also do not understand why this is in the aiming section as TOI is not an aiming method, regardless of how many have tried to bring it down to just that.
 
An off center hit with the appropriate 'attached' plan for it allows for a mis hit on both sides of the intended CB target that can still pocket the ball.
Exactly like any other shot - as has been explained several times in some detail.

...one can aim for the ball to miss the pocket & then through the use of dynamic squirt or spin still pocket the ball. That can NOT be done with a center hit on the CB.
It's no different from any "normal" spin/squirt shot - calling it cute things like "dynamic squirt" doesn't change anything and certainly doesn't create any greater margin of error. That's just marketing prattle for customers who don't/can't think it through clearly.

And since it's just another spin shot, choosing it over a centerball hit is a questionable choice - one that shouldn't be made based on the fantasy of increased margin of error.

pj
chgo
 
I also do not understand why this is in the aiming section as TOI is not an aiming method, regardless of how many have tried to bring it down to just that.


I'd say TOI is more like aiming Visualization... but the CB reacts differently.
The CB, with TOI, is hit hard enough so it doesn't have the amount of spin.

Just IMO
.
 
I also do not understand why this is in the aiming section as TOI is not an aiming method, regardless of how many have tried to bring it down to just that.
This is only about the "margin of error" nonsense, which is precisely about aiming. That and the inevitable derailing because of your incurable misunderstanding make it prime Aiming Forum material - I wouldn't be so cruel as to inflict it on the Main Forum.

pj
chgo
 
I'd say TOI is more like aiming Visualization...
I'd agree with that - it's about how you imagine it, not about any real difference.

...but the CB reacts differently.
The CB, with TOI, is hit hard enough so it doesn't have the amount of spin.

Sorry, but you're wrong about that - hitting harder doesn't reduce spin. The CB doesn't react any differently just because you think about it differently.

You aim and hit a "normal" side spin shot exactly like you hit a TOI shot. There is no difference except in the way it's described - that's just marketing patter.

pj
chgo
 
Exactly like any other shot - as has been explained several times in some detail.


It's no different from any "normal" spin/squirt shot - calling it cute things like "dynamic squirt" doesn't change anything and certainly doesn't create any greater margin of error. That's just marketing prattle for customers who don't/can't think it through clearly.

And since it's just another spin shot, choosing it over a centerball hit is a questionable choice - one that shouldn't be made based on the fantasy of increased margin of error.

pj
chgo

You know enough to know that the speed that the CB travels affects the amount of SIT.

When one intends to use SIT one hits the CB at a speed that will allow the effect to occur.

When one intends to hit off center & not have the effects of the SIT come into play one hits the shot firm enough to take it out of play.

Hence with the same tip placement & location of hit one can have two totally different shots because of the speed of hit.

I've tried to explain the difference in intentions to you on several occasions in the past.

For what ever reason you have refused to acknowledge the difference & have maintained that any off center hit is an english spin shot.

I think others know differently.

TOI as CJ uses & described it is NOT an inside english shot.

Some do hit with just a touch of inside & for them it is an inside english shot. The speed is different & the amount of the 'touch' may also be different.

I've played with english for decades & have approached the pocket from one side almost all of that time, so I readily understood what CJ means by his 3 part pocket & hitting those 3 parts through the use of the dynamics of squirt &/or spin from an intended off center hit on the CB. I understand the advantages of that type of playing.

It seems that you do not have that type of understanding as you play mostly on the vertical axis & use english spin to change the CB path as it comes off of a rail. That's fine if you or anyone else wants to play in that manner it is obviously up to you & them to do so.

CJ has put it out here & not forced it down anyone's throat. I have supported it because I understand it.

Everyone can & should make their own determinations & not rely on you or I.

You say that there is no increase in margin for error when it comes to the actual striking of the CB.

I say that one can aim a ball to miss the pocket & still pocket the ball with dynamics of the squirt of TOI or the application of english for the purpose of SIT & that that can not be done with an intended & accurate center ball hit.

I've played & coached baseball, tennis, & golf & understand the difference in trying to consistently pitch or hit a straight ball with no side spin. High end athletes use spin to their advantage in every other sport. Only beginners & intermediates don't understand or use spin in those sports, that is at least not until they see & understand that it is an advantage.

Like I said in my earlier post, each individual should make their own determinations based on their own critical thinking, etc. & should NOT rely on either you or I or CJ for that responsibility & I ask them to do just that.
 
Last edited:
I'd agree with that - it's about how you imagine it, not about any real difference.



Sorry, but your wrong about that - hitting harder doesn't reduce spin. The CB doesn't react any differently just because you think about it differently.

You aim and hit a "normal" side spin shot exactly like you hit a TOI shot. There is no difference except in the way it's described - that's just marketing patter.

pj
chgo

I'm not saying hitting harder doesn't eliminate CB spin.. but a TOUCH Of Inside at stop
shot speed not only makes the CB squirt, but seems to negate the amount of side spin
after the CB contacts the OB.... Hitting low on the CB with TOI kills that amount of spin.

.
 
Last edited:
I'd say TOI is more like aiming Visualization... but the CB reacts differently.
The CB, with TOI, is hit hard enough so it doesn't have the amount of spin.

Just IMO
.

What you say in very general terms about the speed & spin is on the right track but SOME will argue that it is hit off center so it is a spin shot.

The thing is that TOI is not dependent on any particular aiming method & is NOT an aiming method in & of itself.

Is english an aiming method? No it is not. Like TOI it is a means or method that requires an adjustment to a center ball hit.
 
You know enough to know that the speed that the CB travels affects the amount of SIT.

When one intends to use SIT one hits the CB at a speed that will allow the effect to occur.

When one intends to hit off center & not have the effects of the SIT come into play one hits the shot firm enough to take it out of play.

Hence with the same tip placement & location of hit one can have two totally different shots because of the speed of hit.
None of this has anything to do with the unfounded claim of "increased margin of error" - the topic of this thread.

This constant misunderstanding is how threads on these topics get derailed - and how students of the game get confused and misled.

pj
chgo
 
Back
Top