Too Easy-Shoot What you Make

Island Drive

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Here is a post I made back in March, I'm with Sigel on this one.
#1 03-19-2006, 08:58 AM
Island Drive
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 318


Ipt a Mistake??

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I think one major flaw, a small one but in reality a HUGE one. Ok, we are playing a game most everyone knows and understands, and one of the great games that brings many aspects of all games into one. 8 Ball, slow cloth thats fine, but in looking at the rules the open break rule is a huge mistake. Our culture knows from the bottom up, if you make a stripe and no solid you must shoot a stripe. If you make a solid you must shoot a solid, if you make from both ball groups then open table. Having the worlds greatest players on a 9 foot and having a choice to shoot either group is too much. What I mean, if you travel across country, spend the dollars to get in, and someone puts a 8 pack on you its not right. You may be shooting great but the luck of the table break etc. can throw you under the bus too quickly. They even upped the consecutive racks needed to get the extra 5 grand. I think they have to GO BACK to basic 8 ball, from its core beginning with this rule and take away the open table, leave that in the leagues/bar table arena.
 
or maybe just stick to the rules. 1st its 9 ball is to easy lets do 8 ball. now its 8 ball is too easy lets change the rules. idk maybe im alone here.
 
This is true. The game is way to easy with an open table after breaking and making a ball. The amount of tables that are being broke and ran is insane. This is no challenge to these guys.

YES, 9 BALL IS MUCH HARDER THAN THIS FORMAT!!!!!!
 
I have always been for open table. I have played that way for years now. I am starting to agree that it would be more entertaining to see 8 ball strategy as well as the run outs.

I have only watched one match (Dueul vs Mika) and there was not one safety. 100% offense. I am guessing some of the other matches will be the same. I would not be surprised if, damn near, all the matches are 100% offense...

7 packs are great and all but maybe they do need a slight change to make the game a bit harder since these fellas can really play.
 
CaptiveBred said:
I have only watched one match (Dueul vs Mika) and there was not one safety.
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If you are talking about their match in the final 6 then you are wrong.
 
mindtriplx said:
or maybe just stick to the rules. 1st its 9 ball is to easy lets do 8 ball. now its 8 ball is too easy lets change the rules. idk maybe im alone here.
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Rules are made for change if it betters the sport. Look at NFL football, they improve on the rules EVERY year or change em to accomodate the game as it evolves. Look at Tiger Woods, they are now desiging golf courses different.
 
Celtic said:
If you are talking about their match in the final 6 then you are wrong.
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Nope, the one that is on demand. The stream is too poor for me to watch anything live. I'll have to wait for those to get posted.

The on demand quality is pretty good, BTW. Don't know why they don't give us a live feed like that. Would not be hard if they used a small delay and uploaded to a few servers accross the world. Then use whatever technology is being used for the ondemand feeds. Would be, maybe, a 20 second delay and top quality feed...

I know I could do it if I was tasked with the job... Hope they hire somebody who is a thinker and gets the job done instead of using existing technology and techniques...
 
Aaron "Basically" Czetli said that there is a rumor that the next tournament will not be open after the break.

He said it in the Ortmann vs. Orcollo match while commentating.

Interesting eh?
 
Island Drive said:
Here is a post I made back in March, I'm with Sigel on this one.
#1 03-19-2006, 08:58 AM
Island Drive
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 318


Ipt a Mistake??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think one major flaw, a small one but in reality a HUGE one. Ok, we are playing a game most everyone knows and understands, and one of the great games that brings many aspects of all games into one. 8 Ball, slow cloth thats fine, but in looking at the rules the open break rule is a huge mistake. Our culture knows from the bottom up, if you make a stripe and no solid you must shoot a stripe. If you make a solid you must shoot a solid, if you make from both ball groups then open table. Having the worlds greatest players on a 9 foot and having a choice to shoot either group is too much. What I mean, if you travel across country, spend the dollars to get in, and someone puts a 8 pack on you its not right. You may be shooting great but the luck of the table break etc. can throw you under the bus too quickly. They even upped the consecutive racks needed to get the extra 5 grand. I think they have to GO BACK to basic 8 ball, from its core beginning with this rule and take away the open table, leave that in the leagues/bar table arena.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. The game is too easy.
At qualifier a few months ago Jimmy Wetch and I were watching matches and he made the coment that an 8 pack was not far off. We were watching Raphael Martinez and Justin Bergman at the time. Justin played well, he's a fine young player, but we saw one safety "attempted" in the whole match.
The next match was between Karl Boyes and his opponet I can't remember, but there were no safetys attempted at all. Karl is a fine player, I'm taking nothing from his game, but once on the hill, he broke and made 2 solids, two more were tied up, he took stripes and ran out.
AThere was a calcutta at this particular Q and the big buyer came over and sat with us. At one point he made the comment that he was terribly disapointed because he thought he was going to see some old fashioned 8-ball and all he saw was strictly offensive.
I've been hammered about this before, but I'll say it again, I feel it should also be alternate break. 8-Ball on 9 ft table is too easy.
 
I think we need more accurate stats before jumping to the conclusion that breaking is tremendous advantage.

At the World Open about 10 players had approximately 40% BRO, for their winning games. The top 80 players average in the low 30% range.

This is from an estimated Ball on Break % of around 60-65% I estimate.

In 9-ball, Ball on Breaks are often over 80% and I suspect BRO often climbs above 40% for the better players in favorable conditions.

Anyway, we need more accurate data I think, rather than just assuming that players are running packs of racks everytime they go to the table. From what we do know, even for the best players in the field, the are not breaking and running out in around 60% of their breaks.

For the mid level players in the field, who don't break and run around 70-75% of the time, it already seems to be a relatively low value proposition to take the break. Add to this the option of only taking what was made and I suspect many of the players would be better off passing the break to their opponent.

As for alternate break, it won't cure much, as often enough one player will break dry several times in a row. It would destroy the excitement of watching players run large sequences of racks, or clearing the last 3 from 7-5 to steal a win, but other than that I don't find a problem with it.

Colin
 
trouble with changing this particular rule though is the point that the IPT themselves use to justify it.

"You shouldn't be punished for making a ball on the break"

Which inevitably happens if they can't choose their set. What if you make a solid but the only shot you can see is a stripe?

Personally I think theys should play nine-ball cus then we see great shotmaking, and quite a bit of safety as well. As opposed to the benefits of eight ball which is basically that it's instantly recognisable, and that's about it.
 
worriedbeef said:
Personally I think theys should play nine-ball .
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Nine Ball is a terrible game!!! Whoever the idiot was who put slop in the rules should be shot. If he is already dead, dig him up, shoot him, and rebury him :)

9 ball would be a good game if all slop was eliminated...


I'll stick with this 8 ball format and see where it goes. WAY too earliy to give up on it. I think it needs to be adjusted to make the game more of a ballance between offense and defense. Surely there will be several adjustments over the infancy of the IPT to deliver the perfect game.

It will be interesting to see if that rumor Aaron mentioned is true...
 
I don't quite understand the whole logic of trying to change the rules to "shoot what you make".

Yes, it may be more challenging to runout, but you are also introducing significantly more luck into the break shot. Not only do you need to be lucky enough to pot a ball on the break, but you have to be lucky enough to get a decent shot on the ball that you've made.

I don't think changing the rules to shoot what you make will make things better. In a way, I think things will get worse because players will then complain about how much more luck is involved with the break.

The little gain that would be added to an increase in strategy and safety play will be totally swamped by the luck factor of the break. IMO, you'll see a lot more upsets with "shoot what you make". Maybe that's the reason why Sigel wanted this rule change after all. ;)
 
IMO this is a ridiculous idea, this will only encourage longer tactical frames which could be a turn off for TV, it also punishes the hard break and brings way too much LUCK into the match. You can hit the best break of your life and plant the cb in the middle of the table and immediately be the underdog because you was unlucky enough to sink a ball with a messed up layout.

At the moment it seems most of the players are not playing safe, although Ralf and many of the 8 ball players know when too. More players will soon relaise when to put the breaks on Im sure but like Colin said the Break and Run % is still fairly low.

I just don't see whay 9 ball is harder, As mentioned in the 1 pocket thread many of the pros can run 15 balls 1/3 racks, running 6 or 7 balls after the break with zero traffic is not as challenging as the IPT format and certainly makes dull TV. BUT the main reason we should stick with 8 ball is because its the NUMEBER 1 understood billiard sport in the world. Many of the players are still struggling to make a ball after 3 events and you saw in the final that balls where missed so the conditions are tought enough, whats the problem? :confused:
 
I agree that having to shoot what you make just adds another luck factor to the game and I am against it.

I would like to see alternate breaks though because I think any game where you can lose a match without getting an even chance to play seems kind of silly. Along with alternate breaks I would have a requirement to win by at least two games (I know this won't happen but I can always hope, can't I?)

Can you imagine a tennis match where a Federer, Sampras or Ivanisovic was allowed to serve until the other player broke his serve or he won? I can see a lot of boring 6-0,6-0 scores under that scenario.
 
Keith Buck said:
I agree that having to shoot what you make just adds another luck factor to the game and I am against it.

I would like to see alternate breaks though because I think any game where you can lose a match without getting an even chance to play seems kind of silly. Along with alternate breaks I would have a requirement to win by at least two games (I know this won't happen but I can always hope, can't I?)

Can you imagine a tennis match where a Federer, Sampras or Ivanisovic was allowed to serve until the other player broke his serve or he won? I can see a lot of boring 6-0,6-0 scores under that scenario.
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I dont disagree, prob the only change I think would even out the matches, unless they can increase the race to 10 or more which I dont see happening. Ralf it seems was asking other players opinions during the tournament and I wouldnt be suprised if this happened soon.
 
I think they should stay with the open table after the break.
If you don't want someone to run out the set?
Work on your lag.

Jon
 
Keith Buck said:
I agree that having to shoot what you make just adds another luck factor to the game and I am against it.

I would like to see alternate breaks though because I think any game where you can lose a match without getting an even chance to play seems kind of silly. Along with alternate breaks I would have a requirement to win by at least two games (I know this won't happen but I can always hope, can't I?)

Can you imagine a tennis match where a Federer, Sampras or Ivanisovic was allowed to serve until the other player broke his serve or he won? I can see a lot of boring 6-0,6-0 scores under that scenario.
Click to expand...

Shoot what you make will stop these large 6 & seven packs, on the other hand the alternate break will slow it up too much. I personally think 2 and 3 racks in a row are just fine and most entertaining. I know in 9 ball if you put a 2 and a three on an opponent in a race to 11 you'll win most all the time. When you get a 'lead' in a shoot what you make format your opponent is definetely at a disadvantage. When someone actually runs a 6 pack you know they had to do something special.
 
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