Too Much Emphasis on Mechanics?

nrhoades said:
Yes, you are very right! I've been noticing that my "follow through" has been getting shorter and shorter while maintaining the same effect. I think the top instructors agree with this. You're right on about common knowledge in pool too. I've already started re-evaluating and found some more places to work on. And I suppose my last post was limited specifically to global warming, not pool ;)
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Sorry but I'm one who doesn't agree. I've experimented extensively with following through and in many cases I feel that more is better, and I teach it as well.
 
FranCrimi said:
Sorry but I'm one who doesn't agree. I've experimented extensively with following through and in many cases I feel that more is better, and I teach it as well.
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Fran, on what basis do you feel more follow-through is better? What does the "more" add to the shot?
 
Hers my take on it.
it's not part of the shot it's part of the stroke mechanics.
It aids in smooth acceleration keeping tension out of the arm and keeping the cue on a straighter path.
Otherwise it's a bit like asking a golfer to stop the club 6" past the ball.
Thousands of great players follow through to the natural end of the stroke and it works for them getting straight through the ball, in my experience most of the short stroke players I have watched often come across the ball because they are decelerating.
 
Neil said:
Fran, on what basis do you feel more follow-through is better? What does the "more" add to the shot?
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Without getting into details, it has to do with stroke timing. Planning ahead for a longer follow through can directly affect stroke timing which affects point of maximum acceleration. You should try experimenting with it. I found it to be extremely interesting.

I have also found that there is a direct correlation between improved stroke timing and ball pocketing accuracy.
 
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For what it's worth, about the mental aspect of the game:

When I miss a shot and have to sit in the chair, I never think about the missed shot, mechanics, etc. My only thought is directed at my opponent: "Let me back at the table sucker and I'm going to win this match!"
 
FranCrimi said:
Without getting into details, it has to do with stroke timing. Planning ahead for a longer follow through can directly affect stroke timing which affects point of maximum acceleration. You should try experimenting with it. I found it to be extremely interesting.

I have also found that there is a direct correlation between improved stroke timing and ball pocketing accuracy.
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Thanks for the reply. While I agree with you in premise, that is, that it can improve timing, I also feel that it is adding something unnecessary to fix another problems results.

Meaning, that I agree timing is important. And one needs to stroke THROUGH the cb, and not just attempt to HIT the cb. I feel that if one just learns to finish their stroke, and not attempt to hit the cb, the problem of timing is solved.

To your second paragraph, I totally agree with it.
 
Neil said:
Thanks for the reply. While I agree with you in premise, that is, that it can improve timing, I also feel that it is adding something unnecessary to fix another problems results.

Meaning, that I agree timing is important. And one needs to stroke THROUGH the cb, and not just attempt to HIT the cb. I feel that if one just learns to finish their stroke, and not attempt to hit the cb, the problem of timing is solved.

To your second paragraph, I totally agree with it.
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I have found some interesting results so far, so I'm not going to commit to the premise of simply finishing the stroke. I think there may be more to it that can be beneficial.

Also, the original topic here was shortening the follow through. Planning ahead of time to shorten the follow-through can lead to timing problems.
 
FranCrimi said:
I have found some interesting results so far, so I'm not going to commit to the premise of simply finishing the stroke. I think there may be more to it that can be beneficial.

Also, the original topic here was shortening the follow through. Planning ahead of time to shorten the follow-through can lead to timing problems.
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Purposely shortening definitely can cause timing problems.
 
I just don't want to see anyone amplify their mistakes without knowing it may------>

nrhoades said:
Yes, you are very right! I've been noticing that my "follow through" has been getting shorter and shorter while maintaining the same effect. I think the top instructors agree with this. You're right on about common knowledge in pool too. I've already started re-evaluating and found some more places to work on. And I suppose my last post was limited specifically to global warming, not pool ;)
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There's two schools of thought here, however I know an extended follow through amplifies the effects of spin and deflection. A good rule of thumb is don't follow through any further than you take the cue back.

A person can play either way, however, I'd much rather play someone that has an extended follow through. Even the top players I've matched up with that had long bridges use a relatively short follow through. I used to follow through after my shot extra long to encourage my opponent to do the same if I was spotting them.

Players tend to watch closer when they're getting spotted, trying to "pick up on something to use against you". This is the perfect time to throw them off with some "miss leading" fundamentals. :thumbup: I see some of the best Filipino players do this consistently, probably from hustling a lot when they were developing as players.

Different stokes for different folks. There are more than one way to play this game and I respect that, I just don't want to see anyone amplify their mistakes without knowing it may be because of the misconception of follow through. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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CJ Wiley said:
There's two schools of thought here, however I know an extended follow through amplifies the effects of spin and deflection. A good rule of thumb is don't follow through any further than you take the cue back.

A person can play either way, however, I'd much rather play someone that has an extended follow through. Even the top players I've matched up with that had long bridges use a relatively short follow through. I used to follow through after my shot extra long to encourage my opponent to do the same if I was spotting them.

Players tend to watch closer when they're getting spotted, trying to "pick up on something to use against you". This is the perfect time to throw them off with some "miss leading" fundamentals. :thumbup: I see some of the best Filipino players do this consistently, probably from hustling a lot when they were developing as players.

Different stokes for different folks. There are more than one way to play this game and I respect that, I just don't want to see anyone amplify their mistakes without knowing it may be because of the misconception of follow through. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Well, like you said, CJ, different strokes.... I know I can make some very low percentage shots with lots of spin with an extended follow through, and it never ceases to amaze me how much easier it is, so I'm definitely confused as to why someone would want to extend their follow through to give the impression that they're an inferior player. I'd be looking to hide something like that as an ace in the hole.

My extended follow through shots do mostly require a shoulder drop. Oops....did I say a bad thing? (That wasn't meant for you, CJ)
 
FranCrimi said:
Well, like you said, CJ, different strokes.... I know I can make some very low percentage shots with lots of spin with an extended follow through, and it never ceases to amaze me how much easier it is, so I'm definitely confused as to why someone would want to extend their follow through to give the impression that they're an inferior player. I'd be looking to hide something like that as an ace in the hole.

My extended follow through shots do mostly require a shoulder drop. Oops....did I say a bad thing? (That wasn't meant for you, CJ)
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Ms. Crimi,

If you are not careful, you will be put into the 'savant' category.:wink:

All of the time & effort that you put in means nothing. If you can play well the way you do it, it is because you are a 'savant'.:wink:

Only 'savants' can play that way.:wink:

Best Regards,

PS I would very much like to attend one of the clinics that you & Ms. Koor plan on doing if 'Ya'll' get down below the Mason Dixon line. Please Let me know if that happens.

Best Regards,
 
I don’t remember the number but contact time with the cue ball and cue stick is very short. Given less than .03 seconds of contact (or some such number) then it should not make any difference how you hit the ball – right.

So – use a cue stick like a baseball bat and try to pocket an object ball if you think that follow through is not important.

It is all about alignment and extending the stick through the cue ball. While contact time is short the angle of hit ids important. Follow through insures the right angle relative to pocketing.
 
JoeW said:
I don’t remember the number but contact time with the cue ball and cue stick is very short. Given less than .03 seconds of contact (or some such number) then it should not make any difference how you hit the ball – right.

So – use a cue stick like a baseball bat and try to pocket an object ball if you think that follow through is not important.

It is all about alignment and extending the stick through the cue ball. While contact time is short the angle of hit ids important. Follow through insures the right angle relative to pocketing.
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The time is approx. 1/1000 of a second.

I am not questioning the need to follow through. Ask RandyG...he saw mine this past weekend and it is anything but short! lol

I am curious how an extended follow through amplifies spin and deflection as CJ stated.

Ken
 
ENGLISH! said:
Ms. Crimi,

If you are not careful, you will be put into the 'savant' category.:wink:

All of the time & effort that you put in means nothing. If you can play well the way you do it, it is because you are a 'savant'.:wink:

Only 'savants' can play that way.:wink:

Best Regards,

PS I would very much like to attend one of the clinics that you & Ms. Koor plan on doing if 'Ya'll' get down below the Mason Dixon line. Please Let me know if that happens.

Best Regards,
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Ha! You're too funny, Rick. I will certainly keep you updated regarding our workshops. We may just make our way down there.
 
If everyone gets actively invoved, this could turn into a 'drag out'.:wink:

Maybe someone should define certain vernaculars & parameters:

'Follow through' vs. finishing the stroke vs. cutting the stroke off

Extended vs. equal distant.

F= M x A

cause & effect

The results of bio-mechanical 'power' from a compact short distance acelleration vs the same speed obtained over acelleration covering a longer distance & at what point in the time of the stroke does the decelleration of each begin, namely, when does acelleration turn into decelleration of each type of stroke

A 'piston' stroke follow through vs. a pendulum 'SPF finish'

How, if so, are the results different from a hit with the same speed at contact from a quick pop hit & recoil vs. the results from the long movement of the cue that maintains it's momentum after the hit?

and... all of the spin / deflection parameters given an off center hit whether accidental or intended both on the vertical axis as well as the horizontal axis

Oh, & can a soft tip nearly double the contact time over a hard tip & if so what affect can that have on the cue ball?

And please remember the topic...Too Much Emphasis on Mechanics.:wink:

I'm sure I fogot something.

Oh yeah, the grip & how differences can effect the results of the cue hitting the ball at the same speed.

So...where do we begin & who wants to go first?

Regards to All.

PS Please take this post as intended which is a bit of tongue in cheek.:wink:
 
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Okie said:
...
I am curious how an extended follow through amplifies spin and deflection ...
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To the extent that the cue stick arrives in the same place and at the same speed, etc. what happens to the cue stick after the cue ball leaves the cue tip cannot have any effect whatsoever. Imagine a sniper who shoots off your ferrule just after the ball has left the tip. Shrapnel aside, the destruction of your ferrule cannot have any effect.

Developing a smooth, consistent stroke and avoiding snipers has other advantages.
 
Question for the instructors and high level players.

For the different level players, beginner, intermediate, advanced, what aspect of their game is typically weakest ? What aspect of their game should they spend practicing most to see the most and quickest improvement ?

I know everyone is different, but I imagine experienced instructors see a general pattern after working with different students over the years.

The original question on this thread. Is it mechanics, CB control, patterns, mental, strategy, etc. ?
 
Bob Jewett said:
To the extent that the cue stick arrives in the same place and at the same speed, etc. what happens to the cue stick after the cue ball leaves the cue tip cannot have any effect whatsoever. Imagine a sniper who shoots off your ferrule just after the ball has left the tip. Shrapnel aside, the destruction of your ferrule cannot have any effect.

Developing a smooth, consistent stroke and avoiding snipers has other advantages.
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Mr. Jewitt,

I agree with you that the tip & cue stick can have no further effect on the cue ball once it leaves contact. However, what the cue does immediately after contact is an effect of the cause that sent it in that motion.

It is what happens before contact that affects what happens during contact & what the stick does after contact can be an indication of what took place before & during contact.

Many golf analysts can tell what the flight of a golf ball is merely by seeing the finish of a golfer's swing after the ball has been hit. They don't really need to know what was done before the ball was hit. The follow through can tell them what happened before & during contact.

Do you agree or disagree with my pool suppositions & if not can you please explain how you consider them to be incorrect?

Thanks in advance,
 
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