Too Much Emphasis on Mechanics?

This is a great thread.

I've found that over the years as my performance has improved, my awareness of exactly where the tip was contacting the cue ball has become more and more clairvoyant.

If you ask yourself the question, "How Do We Play Pool", the absolute core answer is "we impart a vector force upon the surface of the cue ball". That's it. That is all we are allowed and able to do. The components of the vector force are 1) where on the surface of the cue ball the vector force occurs, and 2) the magnitude of the force.

What is feel??? When your brain analyzes the problem of trying to make the object ball go in the pocket, it recruits an enormous amount of information gathered from experience. A lot of times you can play pool fantastically for short periods of time if you allow your brain to drive. What your brain does is causes your muscles to contract in a sequence that, via precise timing, will cause the cue tip to hit the cue ball in such a location that it will solve the big picture. However, dependency on this timing is volatile, because as you play your brain is also gathering more information. The new information that it collects as it watches you effortlessly pocket balls enters its algorithm, and it starts over-compensating for some part of the timing. Then you start missing shots again and wonder why. (You dip in and out of dead-stroke).

I think that you can play/practice like this for a long time, and after a while the amount of information you gather will be so large, that your brain algorithm will reach a steady state. I think that is what people refer to “Hit A Million Balls” (HAMB) theory. HAMB does not require precise awareness of the vector force because experience and timing have built the vector force into the solution. Thus you can play well after 30 years or so, having never spent dedicated time working on fundamentals, and thus advising others that fundamentals doesn’t matter.

What are fundamentals??? What fundamentals means to me is training your body to deliver that force vector to exactly where you want to, AND, becoming highly aware of where the cue tip actually landed compared to where you thought it landed. A few years ago I ALWAYS thought that the cue tip was going where I wanted it to, and that my misses were due to a flaw in my aiming method, or something else. As I gained experience points, I was able to see that my stroke wasn’t always doing what I thought it was doing.

I think that things like “making sure your elbow doesn’t move”, “staying down on the ball”, “following through”, “accelerating through the ball”, etc. are all related to helping reduce the average statistical spread of vector force position errors. The mistake I made in the past was that I would focus too much on one particular piece of fundamental advice, say, “keep elbow still”, and would end up creating even MORE vector force position errors than if I just left things more natural.

Soooo, what I am saying is that somebody that has good fundamentals will have a very small “vector force position standard deviation”, REGARDLESS of how their stroke may LOOK.

Do good fundamentals help feel??? Yes, I believe so. Since I think feel is the big algorithm in the brain, if you are able to physical deliver the cue tip exactly where you think you are delivering it, than your algorithm doesn’t need to accumulate extra information to calculate timing in your stroke. It simplifies the problem to be solved in a way. You become a better player in less time than someone who utilizes the HAMB theory. You also better UNDERSTAND what is happening, have a much better facility for teaching pool to other people in the long run. It’s impossible to teach someone your personal brain algorithm.

That’s my take on it. I re-read it and agree with what I wrote, so I’ll post it now.
 
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]what is nlp and how can it be useful for me to learn?

what does nlp stand for??:embarrassed2:

Neuro-Linguistic Programming - I studied this under some of the authorities like Richard Bandler

Here's a brief description from this link, click to find out more: WHAT IS NLP AND HOW CAN IT BE USEFUL FOR ME TO LEARN?



NLP stands for Neuro-Linguistic Programming, a name that encompasses the three most influential components involved in producing human experience: neurology, language and programming. The neurological system regulates how our bodies function, language determines how we interface and communicate with other people and our programming determines the kinds of models of the world we create. Neuro-Linguistic Programming describes the fundamental dynamics between mind (neuro) and language (linguistic) and how their interplay affects our body and behavior (programming).

NLP is a pragmatic school of thought - an 'epistemology' - that addresses the many levels involved in being human. NLP is a multi-dimensional process that involves the development of behavioral competence and flexibility, but also involves strategic thinking and an understanding of the mental and cognitive processes behind behavior. NLP provides tools and skills for the development of states of individual excellence, but it also establishes a system of empowering beliefs and presuppositions about what human beings are, what communication is and what the process of change is all about. At another level, NLP is about self-discovery, exploring identity and mission. It also provides a framework for understanding and relating to the 'spiritual' part of human experience that reaches beyond us as individuals to our family, community and global systems. NLP is not only about competence and excellence, it is about wisdom and vision.
 
thanks for your reply C.J.
seems its not completely accepted by the scientific community
"largely discredited pseudoscience"
as you can read in this first paragraph

i guess similar to the pool community not all buying into TOI
i guess you have to be a believer
no question you believe and are a champion
( with no evidence for proof
its my impression not everyone buys into TOI
i am not saying i am or am not a disciple
i am still undecided)

there is a philosophy of
"i think and so i am"
so if you beleive it its reality for you

nlp.jpg

here is a link to the whole article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming


im sorry this is not related to the original topic but when i found this on wikipedia i thought i shoud post it

dont shoot the messenger please
 
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I studied NLP for awhile and while I hated some things about it, like where it's used for example, in sales, where you're trying to manipulate a buyer.

But what I did find interesting is it can be used to help rid yourself of distracting thoughts that interfere with your pool game.

The best way I can describe NLP is that it addresses the symptoms and not the cause of a problem, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, if you're in the heat of competition and you start to think negative thoughts, you can imagine yourself taking those thoughts and putting them in a box in the corner of your brain, and then shut the door to the box. Convince yourself that those thoughts are now locked away, never to emerge while you continue to play the match.

I've done it. It works. While it doesn't address the reason why those thoughts came about in the first place, it helps you cope with them during a time when you have to get rid of them in order to continue to perform.

The theory of NLP is that if you train yourself to create certain behavior patterns, they will become helpful habits.
 
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thanks for your reply C.J.
seems its not completely accepted by the scientific community
"largely discredited pseudoscience"
as you can read in this first paragraph

...


here is a link to the whole article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming


im sorry this is not related to the original topic but when i found this on wikipedia i thought i shoud post it

dont shoot the messenger please

There is some good information referenced above. Knowledgeable people have little use for NLP as a system. It is often used by people who do not have appropriate training or credentials. Be very careful before becoming involved with this type of thing.

Some of the concepts in NLP abstracted from the traditional professional literature are useful in the hands of a professional. However, as with most complicated issues it takes a skilled practitioner to use them effectively. In the hands of the untrained they can cause more damage than good.

BTW I am not an elitist and think that your best friend, minister or even the local bartender can often provide good advice and support for some problems. Experts are needed for complex intractable problems.
 
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Just like in the Game of pool there are many levels to learning

There is some good information referenced above. Knowledgeable people have little use for NLP as a system. It is often used by people who do not have appropriate training or credentials. Be very careful before becoming involved with this type of thing.

Some of the concepts in NLP abstracted from the traditional professional literature are useful in the hands of a professional. However, as with most complicated issues it takes a skilled practitioner to use them effectively. In the hands of the untrained they can cause more damage than good.

BTW I am not an elitist and think that your best friend, minister or even the local bartender can often provide good advice and support for some problems. Experts are needed for complex intractable problems.

Yes, I have no opinion on NLP other than it led to a lot of other studies that were useful. I studied under Bandler and a few others 25 years ago when I was in my early 20s. I have no idea what it evolved or devolved into, it was just a stepping stone on the path of life for me. The communication areas were the most interesting, it's difficult to create much out of life without communication skills.

Milton Erickson was a very impressive man, Bandler and Grinder wrote four 600 page volumes on his techniques. I read the first condensed version, and never made it through the second one.

Just like in the Game of pool there are many levels to learning and this goes for spiritual, mental or even physical studies. Even the Bible and {other}ancient manuscripts are an example of something that is miss taught and misunderstood by the masses. It's not anyone's fault, it's just a fact of this "world age," all things are not meant to be understood, and some learning is hidden for out own protection. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
It's a challenging job to differentiate what will definitely be positive

There is some good information referenced above. Knowledgeable people have little use for NLP as a system. It is often used by people who do not have appropriate training or credentials. Be very careful before becoming involved with this type of thing.

Some of the concepts in NLP abstracted from the traditional professional literature are useful in the hands of a professional. However, as with most complicated issues it takes a skilled practitioner to use them effectively. In the hands of the untrained they can cause more damage than good.

BTW I am not an elitist and think that your best friend, minister or even the local bartender can often provide good advice and support for some problems. Experts are needed for complex intractable problems.

No one can argue with what you are saying, and it can be said about medicine, religion, and even history. We all have "free will" and must have a filter for what is useful (for us) and what is not.

I was lucky enough to study straight from the source before it got too big and it was a study of talented people for the most part. Simply a system to understand the model of human behavior so we can enhance the learning process. One thing I got out of it was a structured technique for problem solving....it's amazing how often it's come in handy to know exactly how to solve problems, rather than rely on "natural ability" (and that's usually the only other choice in solving anything).

Again it's probably best for me not to talk about these things because they are a delicate matter for many people. Anytime a subject (like religion and politics) stimulates the "belief centers" it usually doesn't end well. I've studied a wide range of topics that for the most part were "in left field," however there was always that one thing that became very beneficial. It's a challenging job to differentiate what will definitely be positive from what may not....this may very well be a spiritual matter at the deepest level of understanding.....or not. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Milton Erickson was a significant person in the development of hypnosis for therapy. Unfortunately, Bandler and Grinder conceptualized Erickson's work in non standard ways in their formulation of NLP. The efficacy of their work has not held up over time.

It is well accepted today that anxiety disorders, among other clinical problems, are better treated using Cognitive Behavioral therapy

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Techniques used in CBT can be used in the solution or resolution of several less serious areas.

For anyone who gets seriously interested in these types of things it is best to consult with a licensed clinical psychologist. There are many texts and other materials that can be used for self improvement without the need for therapy. When specific problems have been identified a little guidance can go a long way.

I hope that does not sound too officious. However, I have learned after many years in this field that there are far too many people with incomplete educations and limited ability to use the whole field as a resource. Consulting with a professional who knows what does and does not work can save you much time, effort and money.

As in many other professional fields, license holders are required to stay on top of their subject matter and can be of much use when deciding on a course of action that may change your life.

A common thought in this area is "Give someone a hammer and every problem becomes a nail." That is, when someone learns one technique or theory they come to believe that all problems can be resolved with this one theory. It just isn't so.
 
Milton Erickson was a significant person in the development of hypnosis for therapy. Unfortunately, Bandler and Grinder conceptualized Erickson's work in non standard ways in their formulation of NLP. The efficacy of their work has not held up over time.

It is well accepted today that anxiety disorders, among other clinical problems, are better treated using Cognitive Behavioral therapy

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Techniques used in CBT can be used in the solution or resolution of several less serious areas.

For anyone who gets seriously interested in these types of things it is best to consult with a licensed clinical psychologist. There are many texts and other materials that can be used for self improvement without the need for therapy. When specific problems have been identified a little guidance can go a long way.

I hope that does not sound too officious. However, I have learned after many years in this field that there are far too many people with incomplete educations and limited ability to use the whole field as a resource. Consulting with a professional who knows what does and does not work can save you much time, effort and money.

As in many other professional fields, license holders are required to stay on top of their subject matter and can be of much use when deciding on a course of action that may change your life.


A common thought in this area is "Give someone a hammer and every problem becomes a nail." That is, when someone learns one technique or theory they come to believe that all problems can be resolved with this one theory. It just isn't so.

Same thing with teaching pool. Some people accumulate a little information and ssuddenly they are giving advice and steering people in wrong directions for no reason other than to satisfy their own low sense of self esteem.
 
A pal of mine has over $1 Billion with a B in sales and uses things he learned in NLP. There are some good things to glean from it; I think prayer to God is much better overall.

I know CJ is very humble and spiritual about his accomplishments and credits God for his many successes and talents.

Thanks.
 
A pal of mine has over $1 Billion with a B in sales and uses things he learned in NLP. There are some good things to glean from it; I think prayer to God is much better overall.

I know CJ is very humble and spiritual about his accomplishments and credits God for his many successes and talents.

Thanks.

You know all that?

That's Fantastic,
randyg
 
"all" problems can't even be identified as problems, some are "solutions in disguise

Milton Erickson was a significant person in the development of hypnosis for therapy. Unfortunately, Bandler and Grinder conceptualized Erickson's work in non standard ways in their formulation of NLP. The efficacy of their work has not held up over time.

It is well accepted today that anxiety disorders, among other clinical problems, are better treated using Cognitive Behavioral therapy

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Techniques used in CBT can be used in the solution or resolution of several less serious areas.

For anyone who gets seriously interested in these types of things it is best to consult with a licensed clinical psychologist. There are many texts and other materials that can be used for self improvement without the need for therapy. When specific problems have been identified a little guidance can go a long way.

I hope that does not sound too officious. However, I have learned after many years in this field that there are far too many people with incomplete educations and limited ability to use the whole field as a resource. Consulting with a professional who knows what does and does not work can save you much time, effort and money.

As in many other professional fields, license holders are required to stay on top of their subject matter and can be of much use when deciding on a course of action that may change your life.

A common thought in this area is "Give someone a hammer and every problem becomes a nail." That is, when someone learns one technique or theory they come to believe that all problems can be resolved with this one theory. It just isn't so.

I certainly agree with that last statement, "all" problems can't even be identified as problems, some are "solutions in disguise." :smile: Perception ends up being the key that unlocks the door of understanding and problem solving.

So there's "standard ways" to conceptualize Erickson's work? Hmmm, I'm not sure what that refers to. They wrote Four, 600 page volumes on Erickson's work, still not sure how this deviated from the "standard work". A "standard work" regarding hypnosis is along the lines of an oxymoron, many people don't believe in these things, and even talking in terms of "the zone" makes many uneasy. :eek:

From my personal experience in pool I believe in playing subconsciously, there are many matches I played and couldn't remember a single shot. The mind is an amazing instrument, and modern science still doesn't understand many aspects of how our minds function. When I first started studying Martial Arts scientists were warning of "global cooling," and now they seem to think it's getting warmer. I wonder if "grant money" 'makes a difference?


I have no dog in the NLP race, it started out used for therapy, and then spread out to sales, self help and other fields. Most of the information was put together from a combination of cognitive studies and philosophies. To me it was just a model of communication and behavior....a "map" if you will and, "The Map is not the Territory". ;) Anyway, I'm breaking the "Golden Rule" in the restaurant business, don't talk about religion, politics or "belief systems". With that being said I'll refrain from further comment. 'The Teacher is the Game'

Cognitive.jpg
 
We all have our own path and way of perceiving Life

A pal of mine has over $1 Billion with a B in sales and uses things he learned in NLP. There are some good things to glean from it; I think prayer to God is much better overall.

I know CJ is very humble and spiritual about his accomplishments and credits God for his many successes and talents.

Thanks.

We all have our own path and way of perceiving Life, however, it's probably wise to give Spirituality priority over "man's teachings," whether physical or mental. Whether a person looks at Life as "The Breath of God," or "The Breath of the Universe," it's up to the individual, there's certainly a Power Higher than one's personal "Self". imho .......or not. ;)
 
You know all that?

That's Fantastic,
randyg

1. CJ speaks very movingly on his instructional videos of humility among good teachers and players in general and of the spiritual realm.

2. I know there are good things in NLP and some things that are under speculation currently.

3. I know from my own anecdotal experience and from the testimony of others, like CJ, that the spirit realm is ascendant (ooh, can't believe I said that) above the earthly. I just did a clinic for almost five hours with Dom Esposito last night and then we went out for dinner and chit-chat 'til almost one o'clock, so I'm a bit punchy today, but yes, we talked about prayer and all God does and how God has our billiards in perspective with other things of equal or greater importance.

Prayer is good! Thanks, Matt
 
This post has certainly taken some interesting turns from learning theories to spirituality. Let me bring it back to Tiger's comments about what he was "thinking" about in a pressure situation. My interest was piqued when I read excerpts of Dave Stockton's book Unconscious Putting. I was reticent to comment on the book as I hadn't read it. I have now read it and promised at least one person in this thread that I would include my impressions and thoughts. Here are some quotes from the book. I will let you make your own parallels to our sport.

Improving your mind and decision making will have as much or more impact on your score than anything you do mechanically. And the ability to see the line and roll the ball on that line is something that anybody can do. There's no magic or mystery to it. Once you understand that, and believe you can do it, there's no limit to the number of putts you can make.

You're probably not reading this book because you have a shortage of information telling you what to do when it comes to putting. And that's the basic problem. Most players are filled up with information - some of it good, some of it conflicting, and most of it overwhelming - about a stroke that moves about three feet and takes up less than three seconds.

Here's my favorite:

...Great pool players move the cue slowly back and forth behind the ball, visualizing the shot and feeling it. I like to see a player approach a shot like that pool player - staying focused on the line and staying in motion, keeping the feel in his hands.

I entitled this post "Too Much Emphasis on Mechanics?" I think what I meant was that in order to take my game to the next level I need to improve my decision making, visualization and confidence. Let's take an example we have all encountered. The 8 ball is close to the side rail and the 9 ball is on the opposite side rail. I need an angle on the 8 ball to get over for the 9. But damn if my angle is too shallow. Now I need to "punch" or "stun" the 8 to get over far enough. But what does that really FEEL like?

Is this book a must read for every pool player? Maybe and maybe not. I must warn you that there are chapters on mechanics and what equipment to buy. Worthless for the pool player and the book is only 90 pages. Some good thoughts though.
 
When I first started studying Martial Arts scientists were warning of "global cooling," and now they seem to think it's getting warmer. I wonder if "grant money" 'makes a difference?

I didn't want to do this because it is off topic, but I felt the need to point out that discrediting science based on science doesn't make any sense. Science is critical thinking based off of collected data, which is sensory information that we have about the world. If the data changes, it isn't anybody's fault. If a weather-man predicts sunshine and a cloud rolls in, there are some people who will blame the weather-man for being imcompetent, then go on not to trust them. This can end up being passed down to children who take it as a creed, and the distrust is ingrained. I have a friend like this... for example he read a story that an olympic marathoner died, and there was found to be some undigested cheese in her stomach. There was no mention on wether or not the cheese had anyting to do with the death. So he went on to conclude that all cheese was terrible, and stopped eating all dairy products. When I mentioned that there was no evidence that the cheese was responsible for her death, he said that he doesn't believe in "evidence", science or technology, and he therefore didn't believe in "data", which means he didn't believe in "information". ..What?? lol. At that point it is impossible to have a realistic conversation with them because they are 100% faith-oriented, and 0% sensory-information oriented.

What non-scientists (or non-critically-thinking people) do not do is separate emotion from data. I suppose it is something you have to train yourself to do (college!). People who can't do this don't really see how they discredit the issue if they don't "like" the data. This is really dangerous, and has been the cause of the majority of unrest in human history. And I can't even blame this on lack-of-education because that kid worked with me as an engineer!!

The kid is still my good friend, so is CJ (I hope :) ), so no offense here. Just be careful not to black-and-white things without investing energy to understand them, lol.
 
I'm just expressing what if effective from my experience. 'The Game is my Teacher'

The kid is still my good friend, so is CJ (I hope :) ), so no offense here. Just be careful not to black-and-white things without investing energy to understand them, lol.

At the risk of disagreement, I must express the following:

I recommend you follow the scientist's advice about your new found follow though. This will simply amplify your spin and defection and even though it "feels right" now, don't be surprised if you start reevaluating the positive influences of "follow through".

I would never recommend anyone follow through more, if anything most novice players follow through too much.

This is something I can easily prove and yes, I have invested a lot of time and energy in knowing what works, from what's just easy to teach. I will lengthen my follow through on purpose (apparently) to encourage my opponents to do the same, if they follow my lead they will not like the results.

Many things that are "common knowledge" in the pool world are simply designed to stunt a players progression. Was this done on purpose by devious people? No, I think it's just easier to teach and understand by the majority of players.

I have a different perspective and don't expect many people to agree with all my opinions about pocket billiards - I'm just expressing what is effective from my experience. 'The Game is my Teacher'
 
At the risk of disagreement, I must express the following:

I recommend you follow the scientist's advice about your new found follow though. This will simply amplify your spin and defection and even though it "feels right" now, don't be surprised if you start reevaluating the positive influences of "follow through".

I would never recommend anyone follow through more, if anything most novice players follow through too much.

This is something I can easily prove and yes, I have invested a lot of time and energy in knowing what works, from what's just easy to teach. I will lengthen my follow through on purpose (apparently) to encourage my opponents to do the same, if they follow my lead they will not like the results.

Many things that are "common knowledge" in the pool world are simply designed to stunt a players progression. Was this done on purpose by devious people? No, I think it's just easier to teach and understand by the majority of players.

I have a different perspective and don't expect many people to agree with all my opinions about pocket billiards - I'm just expressing what is effective from my experience. 'The Game is my Teacher'

Yes, you are very right! I've been noticing that my "follow through" has been getting shorter and shorter while maintaining the same effect. I think the top instructors agree with this. You're right on about common knowledge in pool too. I've already started re-evaluating and found some more places to work on. And I suppose my last post was limited specifically to global warming, not pool ;)
 
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