Too Much Emphasis on Numbers

stevekur1

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Hey All,

Just another random Thought !!

Why does it seem that there is so much emphasis on ball counts.

Hypothetically Speaking

1- Your in a room of players and every one is talking about the games that they play, and you mention that you play Straight Pool....What always follows is "What Is Your High Run ?"

2- I play my whole pool playing life not losing one match by pocketing all the loose balls and then playing safe, and so on and so on. Like i said winning every match i have ever played.: Does this mean i am not a good player, because i dont run alot of balls ?


just 2 foods for thought, care to elaborate ?

-Steve
 
People tend to forget that the object of the game is to win not to break records whether it be personal or otherwise. It's not just 14.1 but most cue games.

I've seen people pass up a lock up safe in 9 ball and take on a ridiculous pot instead just so they could keep the break and out going. It's as though a break and run counts as more of a win.

Winning is about playing percentages and making as few mistakes as possible. Which means, if you have to play safe after a 12 ball run that's whatcha gotta do!

I found when I stopped focusing so much on getting high runs they came more often. Nowadays my attitude is to take it one rack at a time and evaluate each position independent of what run I may or may not be on. Still though, if I find myself in the 50 zone I start thinking about the number.

It's one thing to be missing routine shots, but if the balls aren't breaking up for you and you keep getting stopped at 15....your not neccessarily playing all that bad. But in our minds we are since you have to run 50 every game to play well right?
 
Irving Crane had the reputation of not shooting a shot unless he was certain it would go. He was crafty and did whatever it took to win.

I personally don't think high runs mean all that much. I've had several over 100, but on any given day I might be hard pressed to make 30. What I strive for is a overall consistancy. I play what the table gives me and nothing more.
 
stevekur1 said:
Hey All,

Just another random Thought !!

Why does it seem that there is so much emphasis on ball counts.

Hypothetically Speaking

1- Your in a room of players and every one is talking about the games that they play, and you mention that you play Straight Pool....What always follows is "What Is Your High Run ?"

2- I play my whole pool playing life not losing one match by pocketing all the loose balls and then playing safe, and so on and so on. Like i said winning every match i have ever played.: Does this mean i am not a good player, because i dont run alot of balls ?


just 2 foods for thought, care to elaborate ?

-Steve
Click to expand...

This is an excellent question, Steve.

I don't think there is one simple answer... it's probably a multitude of factors. But I can say this from first hand experience... it's not just pool.

For many years, I was very much into sports (teen years into mid-20's) to the point where I would train tirelessly. My main sports were baseball, football, swimming, and wrestling. I wanted to be a professional athlete very, very badly and some of the most common things I would get asked (by just about everyone, not just people involved in the sport) were:

- What's your fastest 40 ? (football)
- What's your fastest 50m free time? (swimming)
- How fast do you throw? (pitching)
- How much do you bench?

It seems that in most sports, there is an emphasis on what our *highest* achievement is. In most sports, this is how we are measured by our peers and coaches. And most athletes, being competitive by nature, want to keep breaking that barrier (whether it's their own or someone else's barrier). Pool is no exception... especially in 14.1 because you can associate a number with how *well* you potentially play the game.

And, as is also the case in most sports, people will do just about anything to enhance these *numbers*, including cheating. In general, the most common way to cheat in sports is performance enhancing drugs (i.e steroids, human growth hormone, ephedrine, etc...). Well, in pool, it's not quite as easy to deliberately cheat. But as we've recently seen (i.e. sascha), there is always a way to cheat to improve our *numbers*, regardless of the sport/hobby.

In short, I think many people have an innate competitive streak that make them want to excel and achieve great things. But sometimes, poor judgment is used with the end result being a false *number*. I would argue that the emphasis on *numbers* is not such a bad thing (it can often drive us to train or practice harder), but it's how we, as athletes or pool players, go about trying to increase those numbers...

Personally, I think hard work always pays off... even if it doesn't feel like it at the time.

Just my .0002 cents... FWIW.

Ray
 
It s just about being human imo :o)

If i m playing in team-league or even in a tournament there s not one minute where im thinkin about high-runs etc.- i just try to win..how ever possible!
Until you re playin on absolutly top-level you can be very successful with strategy etc. -
And the *small talks* about *our* games and high-runs.....they will ever be around us- that s pool :-)

lg
Ingo
 
Great Post

Great post, Steve. And some interesting comments from everyone. I'd say there's an innate human curiosity that compels us to ask the question "what's your high run?". I was a high school athlete too, a jumper in track, and the most commonly asked question I heard was "what's your highest?", or, "what's your longest in the triple?". Never, how many first places did you take? Same with baseball - you're talking to someone and they say they play baseball, and you say, oh, that's nice. If they say they're an excellent hitter we don't ask, "how many singles do you have?" We ask, "how many home runs do you have?" It's the ultimate barometer to gauge how accomplished someone is at something. Not that it's accurate, but the human psyche believes that is the case.

Ron
 
I Agree

Ron F said:
Great post, Steve. And some interesting comments from everyone. I'd say there's an innate human curiosity that compels us to ask the question "what's your high run?". I was a high school athlete too, a jumper in track, and the most commonly asked question I heard was "what's your highest?", or, "what's your longest in the triple?". Never, how many first places did you take? Same with baseball - you're talking to someone and they say they play baseball, and you say, oh, that's nice. If they say they're an excellent hitter we don't ask, "how many singles do you have?" We ask, "how many home runs do you have?" It's the ultimate barometer to gauge how accomplished someone is at something. Not that it's accurate, but the human psyche believes that is the case.

Ron
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Very good point and I totally agree. The other comments from Ratta & others are right on also. It is the way things are in Sports. Good Post and interesting subject.

PS: I read your other comment on that other Thread stating how hard you are working at achieving your goal. Keep working at it. It will come.
I hope that you will be able to get your own table some day.
 
I think it was 1969 when Jimmy Caras won the worlds and never ran more than 55 balls in any match. And all the greats of the time were there of course. SJM can probably correct me if I am off on this, but I think I am close.

And just another thought of a more recent non-tournament match. Mr. Lipsky ran (If I remember correctly) 147 in a 150 match against Tom Walter at the beginning of the game, but didn't win. I don't think Tom ever let him see those last 3 balls, but I don't know for sure as I was not there. Maybe Steve can eloborate.

Just throwing some thoughts out there on the high runs.

Kev
 
Good Post Steve

Like "Ron F" I was a Track runner in High School. I ran the High Hurdles but of course back then they ran the 120 yard High Hurdles and not meters like today. I was always asked what my best time was. Every event is like that. Baseball: batting average etc.
Getting back to the High Hurdles........ Now, I would need a latter to get over one & a parachute to get down on the other side........... LOL
 
Just For Thought

I may be playing devil’s advocate here, but isn’t accomplishing high runs the means to the end? If you run a high enough number of balls, you will win every game without giving your opponent a chance to compete.

If you were able to build a perfect super-computer controlled, straight pool shooting robot (The Willie3000?) that can analyze every possible shot at every given point in a match and be able to determine and execute the best shot at all times with the perfect amount of english and speed it would result in 150-0 wins 100% of the time. Willie3000 would never play a safe, because there is always a shot that can be made on the table, regardless of the positioning of the balls – and playing a safe would be illogical if you could see and execute every possible shot.

Wouldn’t you say long runs are prevented by failing to see what the best shot to take is at a critical point in a run or failing to execute a shot perfectly? Isn’t playing a safe the human side of pool – the inability to see a dead ball in the pack (even if the dead ball must go 4 rails and into the side pocket).

As many professional players have said, playing good straight pool requires limiting your risks. But that applies only because you’re trying to beat another human opponent. But in a high run the only human opponent you have is yourself and the skills you possess. You must use everything you know about the game - shot selection, speed control, cue ball spin, cheating pockets, banking balls, dead balls, caroms, kisses and billiards, rail first shots, masses, jump shots, etc., etc to continue your run.

There is nothing outside the world of explainable physics that can occur on a pool table. And the more you know about it the better position you will be in to run a high number of balls. Playing a safe, although essential in a match, is an indication of human frailty. It is a resignation of failure. Failure to have played the correct shot 3 shots ago to put you in position to break up a cluster or failure to recognize a ball that can be made out of the pack (even if it’s a kiss shot that’s a dead bank down the long rail).

Aren’t all runs terminated by a human error? Whether it’s a scratch, a miss or poor positioning that leaves no recognizable shot to the player at the table?

Pool is a funny game - incredibly easy, but made incredibly difficult due to the huge amount of variables. And your not only as good as what you know – you’re only as good as what you know and your ability to execute with consistent perfection

Ron F.
 
I think that at some point we become good enough at pocketing balls and playing position that the question of how many balls have you run is nearly synonymous / interchangeable with the question, "how good is your concentration?"

Straight pool, at least IMO is very much a game of intense concentration that has to span multiple racks without being broken. Not an easy thing to accomplish. Given our current skill level, if all of a sudden we were able to achieve long term intense focus, we'd all be running big number.

I know that at least for me, I could be on a 40 or so ball run feeling like I can't miss, the phone rings, I talk on it for 30 seconds, come back to the table and I forgot how to hold the damned cue stick. :shrug:
 
I find that as I age, my game has changed significantly. Of course, I don't practice every day like I did 30 years ago, either.

In college and shortly there after (1978-1982) I had lots of runs in the 50 range, and ended with a high of 72. I won lots of 14.1 games due to my runs. If my opponent made a mistake, they paid for it.

Now, I play a couple of times a week. None of the players that I play really play 14.1, heck, it is a stretch just to get them to play 9-ball or 10-ball.

As such, I find myself unable to run 20 balls with any regularity. Heck, I can run 12-14 balls virtually anytime there are balls open. I just can't transition racks anymore, so I run the table, and play safe with a full rack.

Granted, I am not playing any high-run players, but playing safe seems to be the way to play with my inability to break into the next rack reliably.

As mentioned by others above, the goal is to WIN the game.

Personally, my goals would be to build higher and higher RUNS, which would logically provide the by-product of allowing my opponent less opportunity at the table. Thus, allowing me to win more games.

I look to this forum (as a lurker so far) to help me develop my game back into what it used to be, and then some.

As bad as I am now, I am FAR less likely to take the aggressive shot with high risk. I MUCH prefer to shoot the safety shot when playing an opponent. Of course, this means I am CHOOSING to deny myself an opportunity of a high run. When practicing... different story. I can experiment with ball placement, and work to get my confidence up on those break shots. (which of course, I still suck at...)

Anyhow, great thread. Thanks for posting the issue.
 
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are you playing to win or are you playing to excell?
If you are playing to win then winning is everything.
if you play to excell then I believe the number becomes a bit more important.
Do you think Schmitty is proud of his nickname?
steven
 
Practice.......

Wink said:
I find that as I age, my game has changed significantly. Of course, I don't practice every day like I did 30 years ago, either.

In college and shortly there after (1978-1982) I had lots of runs in the 50 range, and ended with a high of 72. I won lots of 14.1 games due to my runs. If my opponent made a mistake, they paid for it.

Now, I play a couple of times a week. None of the players that I play really play 14.1, heck, it is a stretch just to get them to play 9-ball or 10-ball.

As such, I find myself unable to run 20 balls with any regularity. Heck, I can run 12-14 balls virtually anytime there are balls open. I just can't transition racks anymore, so I run the table, and play safe with a full rack.

Granted, I am not playing any high-run players, but playing safe seems to be the way to play with my inability to break into the next rack reliably.

As mentioned by others above, the goal is to WIN the game.

Personally, my goals would be to build higher and higher RUNS, which would logically provide the by-product of allowing my opponent less opportunity at the table. Thus, allowing me to win more games.

I look to this forum (as a lurker so far) to help me develop my game back into what it used to be, and then some.

As bad as I am now, I am FAR less likely to take the aggressive shot with high risk. I MUCH prefer to shoot the safety shot when playing an opponent. Of course, this means I am CHOOSING to deny myself an opportunity of a high run. When practicing... different story. I can experiment with ball placement, and work to get my confidence up on those break shots. (which of course, I still suck at...)

Anyhow, great thread. Thanks for posting the issue.
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Enjoyed reading your post. You are going about it the correct way.
Playing Defense is just as important as offense. Do not take those "High
Risk" shots while playing a match. Those high risk shots will become normal shots the more you play & practice. Your position to the next ball will become better & better. With more practice you will become more at ease at the table and within time you will get your game back.
Good Luck & keep us posted.
 
Thanks StraightMan.

I'll be looking to this forum for advice on practice routines and drills. Seems there is TONS of info here to consume and think about. I'll primarily be lurking, and asking questions from time to time. It looks as if you have a fairly closely knit group here.

I'll be playing more and more. It is very relaxing, and it is something that I can do on my own. I really need to work a few hours on set break shots, then work on key balls, then set-up balls. My end patterns stink at the moment, and that is my biggest failure. As you say, it will come with practice.

For now -
In a game - I play the smart shot
In practice - I play the "Go For It" shot (and try to extend the run.

I figure, sooner or later, those practice break shots will work more and more often for me. If I don't practice them, I'll never hit them reliably with confidence.
 
Wink,

What has helped me with patterns is - I bought a few straight pool match DVD's from Accu-Stats and simply wore them out. Watch them over and over and over and you'll see things each time that you didn't previously. They help - A LOT.

For break shots I got Grady Mathews Break Shots and Key Balls DVD and wore that out too. It's incredible how much help these DVD's can be in conjunction with loads of work. And it's amazing how difficult it is to fall asleep while listening to Grady's southern drawl talk about putting inside english on a break shot from behind the rack to go 3 rails and out to the center of the table. Trust me, it's worth the investment.

Ron F



Wink said:
Thanks StraightMan.

I'll be looking to this forum for advice on practice routines and drills. Seems there is TONS of info here to consume and think about. I'll primarily be lurking, and asking questions from time to time. It looks as if you have a fairly closely knit group here.

I'll be playing more and more. It is very relaxing, and it is something that I can do on my own. I really need to work a few hours on set break shots, then work on key balls, then set-up balls. My end patterns stink at the moment, and that is my biggest failure. As you say, it will come with practice.

For now -
In a game - I play the smart shot
In practice - I play the "Go For It" shot (and try to extend the run.

I figure, sooner or later, those practice break shots will work more and more often for me. If I don't practice them, I'll never hit them reliably with confidence.
Click to expand...
 
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