Too Much Emphasis on Numbers

Break patterns

Wink said:
Thanks StraightMan.

I'll be looking to this forum for advice on practice routines and drills. Seems there is TONS of info here to consume and think about. I'll primarily be lurking, and asking questions from time to time. It looks as if you have a fairly closely knit group here.

I'll be playing more and more. It is very relaxing, and it is something that I can do on my own. I really need to work a few hours on set break shots, then work on key balls, then set-up balls. My end patterns stink at the moment, and that is my biggest failure. As you say, it will come with practice.

For now -
In a game - I play the smart shot
In practice - I play the "Go For It" shot (and try to extend the run.

I figure, sooner or later, those practice break shots will work more and more often for me. If I don't practice them, I'll never hit them reliably with confidence.
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Sounds like you used to hit them pretty well.

Here is a pdf from a class that Tom Kollins taught, among others, Bobby Hunter. It is on end patterns.

I am sure you must have been very familiar with them back in the old days but this might refresh your recollection.

They say Dallas West used to throw three balls out randomly and practice over and over again how to get on a break shot.
 

Attachments

WOW!

Great practice format! I'll set all of those up and run them a few times this afternoon or evening. There are definitely some very hard sets in there.

Thanks DMG!
 
Ron, I have to admit that you are sometimes guilty of this. Many times when we play and you complete a rack and I'm racking the balls you will ask me how many you are on and I always tell you "I don't know. I haven't been counting.", which is true. I try not to think about how many balls I'm running. I key on two things... (1) staying at the table, and (2) not leaving the table on a miss. If it turns out I was at the table for a few racks, the beads (or counters) will always tell me how many afterwards. I just try to move from one ball to the next, and if I have to leave the table, leave it on a safety or intentional scratch.
 
Ron F said:
Wink,

What has helped me with patterns is - I bought a few straight pool match DVD's from Accu-Stats and simply wore them out. Watch them over and over and over and you'll see things each time that you didn't previously. They help - A LOT.

For break shots I got Grady Mathews Break Shots and Key Balls DVD and wore that out too. It's incredible how much help these DVD's can be in conjunction with loads of work. And it's amazing how difficult it is to fall asleep while listening to Grady's southern drawl talk about putting inside english on a break shot from behind the rack to go 3 rails and out to the center of the table. Trust me, it's worth the investment.

Ron F
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Ron,

Great idea. For the moment, I am reading on here, as well as watching a bunch of great YouTube runs. I watched a 98 ball run last night by Thorsten Hohmann and was pleased to see that even he had to change his shots here and there. Reality is, his speed control, and his ability to plan ahead to the break ball were amazing.

I'll probably leverage the free resources to start with, and then move to the DVD model. I still have quite a few books and 20-30 VHS tapes that are pool instruction and pool matches.

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts. Heavens knows I need all the help I can get. I have been playing "social" pool for far too long and need to get back into potting balls without trying to keep others interested.
 
Fair Enough

Wink,

Fair enough. One thing you just mentioned that stood out is Thurston's speed control. One of my favorite commentators in straight pool DVDs is Nick Varner, for various reasons, but mainly for his knowledge of how to play the game extremely well and what to comment about while commentating a match. If you listen to a Varner-commentated match you'll hear him mention most frequently on speed control. If I close my eyes, I can hear him, while commentating with Billy Incardona, saying, "I don't know if I like this position to get on the break ball, Billy. He's got a pretty good angle here and he's a bit too far up table". Then the shot takes place, and Nick says, "Ahhhhhh, great speed control, Billy. He really put a good stroke on that ball." Hey, if Nick values speed control that highly it's got to be one of the most important main components of the game. That's some great stuff right there.

Ron F


Wink said:
Ron,

Great idea. For the moment, I am reading on here, as well as watching a bunch of great YouTube runs. I watched a 98 ball run last night by Thorsten Hohmann and was pleased to see that even he had to change his shots here and there. Reality is, his speed control, and his ability to plan ahead to the break ball were amazing.

I'll probably leverage the free resources to start with, and then move to the DVD model. I still have quite a few books and 20-30 VHS tapes that are pool instruction and pool matches.

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts. Heavens knows I need all the help I can get. I have been playing "social" pool for far too long and need to get back into potting balls without trying to keep others interested.
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stevekur1 said:
Hey All,

Just another random Thought !!

Why does it seem that there is so much emphasis on ball counts.

Hypothetically Speaking

1- Your in a room of players and every one is talking about the games that they play, and you mention that you play Straight Pool....What always follows is "What Is Your High Run ?"

2- I play my whole pool playing life not losing one match by pocketing all the loose balls and then playing safe, and so on and so on. Like i said winning every match i have ever played.: Does this mean i am not a good player, because i dont run alot of balls ?


just 2 foods for thought, care to elaborate ?

-Steve
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on the off chance you get out moved the guy that can run more balls might just beat you though.
 
poolplayer2093 said:
on the off chance you get out moved the guy that can run more balls might just beat you though.
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True, but the idea isn't so much to take a Frank Taberski approach and purposely only run 15 balls at a time. Rather it's ensure you are always playing the right shot rather than always aiming for your highest run (ie. play the percentages, don't take low percentage shots just to keep the run going).

I agree the most efficient way to win a 150 point match is to run 150 and out. No doubt about it, the fewer opportunities your opponent recieves, the fewer chances he has to beat you. Ultra conservative play will only lead to failiure at one point as you trying not to lose rather than trying to win.

Where I see problems, is when a player dies with his run. Plays break shots that he never practices, plays tough shots in a way that will leave little reward...all so that he or she will keep the run going. SOMETIMES it works, but often times it doesn't and you leave an easy opportunity for your opponent.

I have very little competitive experience with 14.1 as no one plays it seriously in my area. However in snooker (which is also high break focused) I don't think I have ever seen an amateur (at least one who has never hit a century) play safe on a 30+ break where there was still a loose red that could be played. Definitely not on a 40+ break.

edit: I guess it's worth adding that this is situation dependant. If your playing against someone who can only run 10-20 balls on a good day, your probably not risking much going all out for the high run if you've already hit the 50 mark. I'm thinking more about pushing too hard when your only on 15-30 balls and/or against someone that can fire back.
 
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Ron F said:
Wink,
If you listen to a Varner-commentated match you'll hear him mention most frequently on speed control. If I close my eyes, I can hear him, while commentating with Billy Incardona, saying, "I don't know if I like this position to get on the break ball, Billy. He's got a pretty good angle here and he's a bit too far up table". Then the shot takes place, and Nick says, "Ahhhhhh, great speed control, Billy. He really put a good stroke on that ball."
Ron F
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I think i recognize that quote. Souquet/Reyes match where Souquet's play is flawless and Nick's commentary is great. I think I remember the shot, too. Cue ball up in the kitchen, key ball on or near the opposite rail, break shot on the same side and a bit below the key ball.

I may be wrong but it is a great video anyway.
 
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Wink said:
I really need to work a few hours on set break shots, then work on key balls, then set-up balls. My end patterns stink at the moment, and that is my biggest failure.
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Here's a link to a Blackjack video on getting from the key ball to the break ball:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=193049

And this thread contains a chart by Steve Lipsky of favorite break shots:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=173678&highlight=break+shot

And here is another discussion:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=58040&highlight=break+shot
 
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I'll be looking to this forum for advice on practice routines and drills. Seems there is TONS of info here to consume and think about.
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the best drill you can do is to scatter all 15 balls at random around the table and place the cue wherever you wish, then shoot them all in without touching a rail. when my game is off, i go back to this and IT WORKS.
 
Exactly

You hit the nail on the head. That's the exact match and Nick makes similar comments on speed control throughout the match. Excellent DVD - I fall asleep watching it every night.

Ron F


dmgwalsh said:
I think i recognize that quote. Souquet/Reyes match where Souquet's play is flawless and Nick's commentary is great. I think I remember the shot, too. Cue ball up in the kitchen, key ball on or near the opposite rail, break shot on the same side and a bit below the key ball.

I may be wrong but it is a great video anyway.
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Duh

Winston,

I don't count every ball I make as if it will lead to a new world record, but I do like to keep track of where I am because I have a personal goal. I'd like to reach 100 eventually. I'd also like to be able to know with 100% accuracy what my high run is and be able to say, if asked, what my high run is with full honesty and integrity.

I guess if I was stuck at 61 I'd lose interest in counting too. Touche!:p

Ron F



Winston846 said:
Ron, I have to admit that you are sometimes guilty of this. Many times when we play and you complete a rack and I'm racking the balls you will ask me how many you are on and I always tell you "I don't know. I haven't been counting.", which is true. I try not to think about how many balls I'm running. I key on two things... (1) staying at the table, and (2) not leaving the table on a miss. If it turns out I was at the table for a few racks, the beads (or counters) will always tell me how many afterwards. I just try to move from one ball to the next, and if I have to leave the table, leave it on a safety or intentional scratch.
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Thanks for the links and the drills DMGWalsh and Sausage.

I have started a drill book, and am printing out, and writing down various drills to work on.

NOT hitting ANY rails?! Seems impossible for a mere mortal. :)
 
dmgwalsh said:
Here's a link to a Blackjack video on getting from the key ball to the break ball:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=193049
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Dennis, that is video proof that I can run at least 1 ball.

:)

I also have some other 14.1 drills posted on youtube -

An easy way to learn how to fall on simple end patterns
End Pattern Drill: 3 Rows of 3


A variation of the 1st dfrill, plus a 15 ball drill
ENd Pattern Drill 2: 3 rows of 3 / 3 rows of 5

The middle to end of this video shows me just tossing balls on the table and getting on the break ball -
14.1 Evaluation - BigRigTom Part2

This video proves that I have entirely too much time on my hands.
Restricted to half table

I have a few more I may post up later - but these will keep you busy for quite a while.
 
Ron F said:
Winston,

I don't count every ball I make as if it will lead to a new world record, but I do like to keep track of where I am because I have a personal goal. I'd like to reach 100 eventually. I'd also like to be able to know with 100% accuracy what my high run is and be able to say, if asked, what my high run is with full honesty and integrity.

I guess if I was stuck at 61 I'd lose interest in counting too. Touche!:p

Ron F
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You know I've hardly picked up a cue over the last several weeks and the time I've put into it pales in comparison to the time you have over that period. I certainly haven't spent $400 a month in table time. I have a lot going on right now. Given the time you've put into it recently, of course you're playing well and given the time I've put into it recently, of course I'm not. I simply pointed out that you tend to track runs as we play, which was a relevant point to this thread.

And I'm certainly not competing with you for high run. If you make 100 before me, great. But it has no bearing on my game.
 
that 'no rails' drill works on several levels to improve your game. it forces you to pay more attention to cue position. you start 'pinching' your shots without even realizing. that's when you know you are in-stroke; when you can effortlessly pick and choose into which the part of the pocket your OB will go to get that perfect CB position. also, if one is watching the OB to the pocket, you are not playing correctly. when the cue obeys, so too will the OB.
 
Bill - Great video on Vimeo, thanks. I added that to my favorites. I'll give that some effort tonight.

Blackjack - I already subscribe to your YouTube videos (60 or so if I recall) and have been working my way through them.

TONS of great info and guidance.
 
stevekur1 said:
Too Much Emphasis on Numbers
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This is an engaging thread with some interesting responses.

George Fels (with his usual eloquence) supports the OP's argument in the current issue of Billiards Digest.

In this month's column, George discusses two players (Mike Eufemia and Tom Parker), each with high runs of over 600, who were seldom able to muster anything close to their usual speed under competitive pressure.

George ends with this: "My idea of a great run is Luther Lassiter going 92-and-out for $5,000 with his opponent sitting glumly in the 2-hole. The run, the victory margin, the stakes, none of that will ever even get a whiff of the record books. But that's pool greatness."
 
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