Top and Bottom English???? WTH?

["CaliRed".]

It's very confusing to read some of these threads where people describe using top english and bottom english or even center english

Here's a example taken from a thread on the 1st page.

So if you play a one rail kick shot with bottom English and hit the OB full, the cue ball stops as if you hit it with no rail bottom. I know it works but don't quite understand why. Seems like the English would tend to reverse after hitting a rail or at least cancel out.

So it doesn't really retain any back spin, just skid? Would you get the same skid with center English?

I have never in my life heard top (follow) or bottom (draw) used with english attached to them too, until I came to these forums.

English to me, is very simple. It is used to describe side spin. Meaning that anything hit a millimeter to the left or right of center ball, is going to be english. It will be left or right english.

Additionally, left or right english can be described with the terms, inside or outside. Inside or outside is determined by where the cueball is, in relation to where ever it's going to hit, whether it be just a rail or a object ball. Inside can also be described as reverse and outside can be described as running. Confused? I'll summarize at the bottom of the cueball pic.

Hopefully the picture below helps describing what I am saying.


If one was to describe Example 1. They would one of the following....
I hit it with high left
I hit it with top left
I hit it with left follow

Depending on the placement of the balls, they could substitute left with either inside (reverse) or outside (running) and say this.....

I hit it with high inside/outside
I hit it with top inside/outside
I hit it with inside/outside follow

Now if they wanted to be more specific, which is very helpful, they would include a common reference of measurement, "a tip" In all the examples above, if a person wanted to describe exactly what they used, they would inject the number of tips to indicate exactly where to hit the cueball.

In the example, one could say
I hit it with 2 tips of top and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)
I hit it with 2 tips of follow and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)

I hit it with I hit it with 2 tips of high and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)

SUMMARY:

English is only used to describe left or right of the center of the cueball. It is NOT used to describe hitting above or below the center of the cueball. You don't say "I hit it with top english" or "I hit it with bottom english"


Left or Right english can also be described as inside or outside english.

Inside or outside english can also be described as running or reverse english.

In MOST cases, Inside english is reverse. In MOST cases outside english is running.

When it is not, is pictured in the example below.

CueTable Help

Inside or Reverse english means the cueball is going to die or shorten up after it hits the rail

Outside or running english means the cueball is going to haul ass or lengthen after it hits the rail.

Final Summary!

English is left or right, English is inside or outside, English is running or reverse.

Left can be inside or outside
Left can be running or reverse

Right can be inside or outside
Right can be running or reverse

Inside can also be described as reverse
Outside can also be describe as running

I got to go to work.. so you guys can take it from here.

 

[vincentwu817]

Good write up. Pool terms can be pretty confusing at times. I learned the game in Chinese and the terms seems to be more unified. For example, we have terms describing where the cue ball was struck (high, middle, low), then we also describe the reaction of the cue ball (follow, stun, draw). Some terms can be pretty ambiguous.

For example, one might say that he shot the ball with a center ball. Does he mean that he stunned the shot or he actually hit the center of the ball. The cue ball will react differently depending on the speed of the shot. So that can be pretty confusing too.

Or when I try to "follow" the ball for a little bit when the cue ball and the object ball is far away, I hit low on the cue ball to let it slide (more speed at first = less chance for dirty spots on the table to effect my shot). Would I describe the shot by using draw or follow?

The terms can be pretty tricky sometimes or maybe I just didn't learn it correctly .

It's very confusing to read some of these threads where people describe using top english and bottom english or even center english

Here's a example taken from a thread on the 1st page.





I have never in my life heard top (follow) or bottom (draw) used with english attached to them too, until I came to these forums.

English to me, is very simple. It is used to describe side spin. Meaning that anything hit a millimeter to the left or right of center ball, is going to be english. It will be left or right english.

Additionally, left or right english can be described with the terms, inside or outside. Inside or outside is determined by where the cueball is, in relation to where ever it's going to hit, whether it be just a rail or a object ball. Inside can also be described as reverse and outside can be described as running. Confused? I'll summarize at the bottom of the cueball pic.

Hopefully the picture below helps describing what I am saying.
View attachment 185775

If one was to describe Example 1. They would one of the following....
I hit it with high left
I hit it with top left
I hit it with left follow

Depending on the placement of the balls, they could substitute left with either inside (reverse) or outside (running) and say this.....

I hit it with high inside/outside
I hit it with top inside/outside
I hit it with inside/outside follow

Now if they wanted to be more specific, which is very helpful, they would include a common reference of measurement, "a tip" In all the examples above, if a person wanted to describe exactly what they used, they would inject the number of tips to indicate exactly where to hit the cueball.

In the example, one could say
I hit it with 2 tips of top and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)
I hit it with 2 tips of follow and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)

I hit it with I hit it with 2 tips of high and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)

SUMMARY:

English is only used to describe left or right of the center of the cueball. It is NOT used to describe hitting above or below the center of the cueball. You don't say "I hit it with top english" or "I hit it with bottom english"
View attachment 185776

Left or Right english can also be described as inside or outside english.

Inside or outside english can also be described as running or reverse english.

In MOST cases, Inside english is reverse. In MOST cases outside english is running.

When it is not, is pictured in the example below.

CueTable Help

Inside or Reverse english means the cueball is going to die or shorten up after it hits the rail

Outside or running english means the cueball is going to haul ass or lengthen after it hits the rail.

Final Summary!

English is left or right, English is inside or outside, English is running or reverse.

Left can be inside or outside
Left can be running or reverse

Right can be inside or outside
Right can be running or reverse

Inside can also be described as reverse
Outside can also be describe as running

I got to go to work.. so you guys can take it from here.

 

[bearsafety]

You should purchase a book, there are a lot of good reads out there that will teach you more than anyone writing in here.

 

[Roadie]

It's very confusing to read some of these threads where people describe using top english and bottom english or even center english

Here's a example taken from a thread on the 1st page.





I have never in my life heard top (follow) or bottom (draw) used with english attached to them too, until I came to these forums.

English to me, is very simple. It is used to describe side spin. Meaning that anything hit a millimeter to the left or right of center ball, is going to be english. It will be left or right english.

Additionally, left or right english can be described with the terms, inside or outside. Inside or outside is determined by where the cueball is, in relation to where ever it's going to hit, whether it be just a rail or a object ball. Inside can also be described as reverse and outside can be described as running. Confused? I'll summarize at the bottom of the cueball pic.

Hopefully the picture below helps describing what I am saying.
View attachment 185775

If one was to describe Example 1. They would one of the following....
I hit it with high left
I hit it with top left
I hit it with left follow

Depending on the placement of the balls, they could substitute left with either inside (reverse) or outside (running) and say this.....

I hit it with high inside/outside
I hit it with top inside/outside
I hit it with inside/outside follow

Now if they wanted to be more specific, which is very helpful, they would include a common reference of measurement, "a tip" In all the examples above, if a person wanted to describe exactly what they used, they would inject the number of tips to indicate exactly where to hit the cueball.

In the example, one could say
I hit it with 2 tips of top and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)
I hit it with 2 tips of follow and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)

I hit it with I hit it with 2 tips of high and 2 tips of left (or inside/outside or running or reverse)

SUMMARY:

English is only used to describe left or right of the center of the cueball. It is NOT used to describe hitting above or below the center of the cueball. You don't say "I hit it with top english" or "I hit it with bottom english"
View attachment 185776

Left or Right english can also be described as inside or outside english.

Inside or outside english can also be described as running or reverse english.

In MOST cases, Inside english is reverse. In MOST cases outside english is running.

When it is not, is pictured in the example below.

CueTable Help

Inside or Reverse english means the cueball is going to die or shorten up after it hits the rail

Outside or running english means the cueball is going to haul ass or lengthen after it hits the rail.

Final Summary!

English is left or right, English is inside or outside, English is running or reverse.

Left can be inside or outside
Left can be running or reverse

Right can be inside or outside
Right can be running or reverse

Inside can also be described as reverse
Outside can also be describe as running

I got to go to work.. so you guys can take it from here.

We should not be using "english" to describe spin at all. You could make the case though that the term could be used for top and bottom as those are also spins that cannot be generated very well without the use of chalk.

And it was Jack Carr and his Magic Twisting Chalk that was reportedly responsible for spin being termed english in the first place. And you though Kamui chalk was expensive. Before Jack would sell you some he would beat the house out of their money doing proposition shots with his chalked tip when everyone else had no chalk to make the ball twist.

The proper terms for all types of spin should be high, low, left, right and all combinations in between. We don't need any more than that. Tips is a decent enough measure for denoting distance, 1/2 tip, one tip, two tips. However this is a simple measure because of course tips vary in size. But it is enough to get the point across.

Abolish the word english and commit to using spin instead. You don't even need to have the word side-spin. Simply left spin suffices to convey the idea. And for advanced players of course simply left is enough.

 

["CaliRed".]

Good write up. Pool terms can be pretty confusing at times. I learned the game in Chinese and the terms seems to be more unified. For example, we have terms describing where the cue ball was struck (high, middle, low), then we also describe the reaction of the cue ball (follow, stun, draw). Some terms can be pretty ambiguous.

For example, one might say that he shot the ball with a center ball. Does he mean that he stunned the shot or he actually hit the center of the ball. The cue ball will react differently depending on the speed of the shot. So that can be pretty confusing too.

Or when I try to "follow" the ball for a little bit when the cue ball and the object ball is far away, I hit low on the cue ball to let it slide (more speed at first = less chance for dirty spots on the table to effect my shot). Would I describe the shot by using draw or follow?

The terms can be pretty tricky sometimes or maybe I just didn't learn it correctly .

Right you are on the different kinds of stroke you put on the ball, that is a whole other write up Then you get into all the other terms, such as stun, nip, kill, and the other 50 ways to describe your lover, I mean stroke. The shot you describe, might be something like a stun follow. Where you're hitting it low to make up for the distance, so when it hits the object ball, the draw has been used up and it's hitting it just in time to make a few revolutions forward.

 

[vincentwu817]

Right you are on the different kinds of stroke you put on the ball, that is a whole other write up Then you get into all the other terms, such as stun, nip, kill, and the other 50 ways to describe your lover, I mean stroke. The shot you describe, might be something like a stun follow. Where you're hitting it low to make up for the distance, so when it hits the object ball, the draw has been used up and it's hitting it just in time to make a few revolutions forward.

Yea, way too many possibilities for a special term to be assigned to each of them. The sliding shot I'm talking about is actually the kill shot. But you can also kill a shot with soft reverse English. Too complicated, I think generally if you have some sort of experience with pool, it is not too hard to communicate a certain shot to each other. But yes, it is way too vague most of the time. "Use bottom right on this shot." How much bottom? how much right? and with how much speed?

 

["CaliRed".]

We should not be using "english" to describe spin at all. You could make the case though that the term could be used for top and bottom as those are also spins that cannot be generated very well without the use of chalk.

And it was Jack Carr and his Magic Twisting Chalk that was reportedly responsible for spin being termed english in the first place. And you though Kamui chalk was expensive. Before Jack would sell you some he would beat the house out of their money doing proposition shots with his chalked tip when everyone else had no chalk to make the ball twist.

The proper terms for all types of spin should be high, low, left, right and all combinations in between. We don't need any more than that. Tips is a decent enough measure for denoting distance, 1/2 tip, one tip, two tips. However this is a simple measure because of course tips vary in size. But it is enough to get the point across.

Abolish the word english and commit to using spin instead. You don't even need to have the word side-spin. Simply left spin suffices to convey the idea. And for advanced players of course simply left is enough.

I don't have any problem dropping the word english either. I pretty much use the terms left or right or inside or outside to describe the spin by hitting the left or right side of the ball, and I use draw or low or follow or high, to describe hitting the top or bottom of the ball.

If a person knows what inside or outside is, then you don't have to tell them whether it will be running or reverse after it hits a rail. I don't ever say top or bottom.

It's just when I hear the term "I used top english" , I feel like I'm missing out on a piece of the puzzle. I know the top is follow or high, but when I hear english.. I'm looking for whether it was left or right or inside or outside.

I'm sure there are many interpretations... I"m just stating what I have learned from Day 1, and being in different areas of the country, I still have never heard top or bottom english before, until I came to these forums.:wink: It had to have something else with it ... top right or inside left. SOMETHING !!!

 

["CaliRed".]

no other opinions?

am I crazy or do others agree with this?

C'mon, pull yourselves out of all those PuppetPointPosts

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

When I started leaning or playing league 20 years ago, all I knew was center and stun, top and bottom, left and right English.

I just took it as a progression in learning later when those other terms were introduced. And you're correct, no one taught me those terms in the hall, it wasn't until I became a member here and purchased books and DVDs that I
was made aware of those terms.

Inside and outside, running and reverse etc. A little confusing at first until you get a handle on them.

I guess I was performing those shots previously, its just that I didn't know what they were called.

 

[Snapshot9]

English

From the wikipedia

Chiefly American: Also known as side spin, english (which is usually not capitalized)[33] is spin placed on the cue ball when hit with the cue tip to the left or right of the ball's center. English has a marked effect on cue ball rebound angle off cushions (though not off object balls), and is thus crucial for gaining shape; and can be used to "throw" an object ball slightly off its otherwise expected trajectory, to cheat the pocket, and for other effects. "English" is sometimes used more inclusively, to colloquially also refer to follow and draw. In combination one could say bottom-right english, or like the face of a clock (4 o'clock english).[5] The British and Irish do not use this term, instead preferring "side". See illustration at spin.

 

[Scott Lee]

CaliRed...You are not crazy. I have been saying the same thing for decades. Sidespin is not the same as topspin or draw...unless you ADD sidespin to the high or low cuetip position on the CB. One thing though, you can strike a CB in the center, but still add sidespin. A CB struck with top left or bottom left, for example, behaves differently, off the rail, than a CB with center left. This is easily demonstrated. I have found, over the years, that some poolplayers just call any spin English, no matter where they aim on the CB. It seems like it's more regional in application, and I've found it most prominent in the south. Good thread!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowlege.com

no other opinions?

am I crazy or do others agree with this?

C'mon, pull yourselves out of all those PuppetPointPosts

 

[RRfireblade]

no other opinions?

am I crazy or do others agree with this?

C'mon, pull yourselves out of all those PuppetPointPosts

Not crazy, little padantic maybe.

English has become slang for cue induced spin. I doubt anyone is truly confused when someone says top English. We all know what that means.

I mean what about parking or rolling the rock, or action, or railbirds. Do anyone really think there is a species of fowl that frequent train track?

Don't take at all so serious. Its just a game.

 

[Roadking]

I don't know if its correct or not but I always say
Bottom, Bottom left, Bottom right, Top, Top left, Top right.
Also I don't know if it's just me but I hardly ever use just Right or Left English by itself.

 

[duckie]

Whats your point? This has been discussed on here before.

Are you wanting people to use only the terms you think are correct?

 

[ron59]

1) I've heard English used to describe anything other than normal center ball hits.

2) What's the big deal?

:boring:

 

["CaliRed".]

If you can't figure out what the point is, I'm not going to spell it out for you.

Yeah..that's what I'm trying to do...make everyone use my terms...yep..that'll make me all warm and fuzzy. So, are you onboard then ducky?

sent from my mobile, so lucky for you, it will be short

 

[Tom In Cincy]

If it were truely simple, why is it so important?
I always thought that if you make the cue ball do anything other than the expected result of a center hit, you are imparting english on the cue ball.

Actually, center hit hard, medium and very soft, result in different reactions at different angles. Maybe all hits should be considered some type of vertical/horizontal or speed English.

Besides... some players that have those MONSTER strokes.. have soo much juice that it makes the rail pop up and spit out WOWs.



btw, nice graphics as usual.

English to me, is very simple. It is used to describe side spin. Meaning that anything hit a millimeter to the left or right of center ball, is going to be english. It will be left or right english.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Cali;

I loved your previous avatar in which you looked rather stunned. Or was it spun? No wait, it may have been 1 tip toward 11 o'clock. :thumbup:

Best,
Brian kc

 

[3RAILKICK]

And then?

Cali-

Good summary. Good graphics.

Question/clarification:

These terms describe the 'hit' on the cb. Once the cb gets where you want it to-the cb may be behaving differently. Hopefully-by design. (eg. stun and draw wear off)

So to be clear and picky-these terms describe the initial hit on the cb-right?

Take care

ps: sent you a PM on another matter

 

["CaliRed".]

Cali;

I loved your previous avatar in which you looked rather stunned. Or was it spun? No wait, it may have been 1 tip toward 11 o'clock. :thumbup:

Best,
Brian kc

If i remember right, you said it was "disturbing", which I had to agree with. Your comment weighed heavy on my mind. Tossing and turning at night, waking up in a cold sweat. A couple of weekends, I did what I had to do.. I retired the cueman

Yes, I was "stunned" in it, I thought maybe people would "follow" along with it, but apparently it wasn't a very big "draw". I could have "left" it where it was, but that wouldn't have been "right". I'm not trying to be the "center" of attention you know. One of these days, I will find a way to "top" that one, but till then, I'm digging at the "bottom" of the barrel.