Top Money Players

[Matt_24]

It's kind of funny reading this post, Mapman72. Keith actually spoke the same words about you. He has a difficult time when players rack their own balls and the wing ball keeps flying in the same pocket. When it happens 5 times in a row -- as it did in Laurel several days ago -- he will speak up.
Actually, he told me Wednesday night that he DELIBERATELY did not win on the hill-hill at Champions because he did not want to lose a friendship, FWIW, which is why the 5 ball did not go in the hole. After you vented your anger at him because he questioned you racking the balls ahead of the spot, he decided the win just was not worth it. If you ask him about it next time you see him, he may be able to explain it better than I on a forum.

JAM

Could Keith inspect the rack even though he was racking his own? This could have solved any problems after the first time keith suspected Mapman was giving himself a shifty rack. I've seen Buddy Hall do it to opponents to the point of annoyance but it's his right...and their right to do it right back to him.

 

[sharandrew]

JAM,

I don't get out like I used to but have "heard" that Bobby Hawk is considered the best MD/DC area one pocket player these days. Now..I'm not going to go into anything about his character, but is he not willing to play Keith some even one hole?

Like you said...most players just want to S..T..E..A..L. Few have any REAL heart. Who do you or Keith think would win in a one pocket game between Pooky and Bobby Hawk. I've seen Bobby and Pooky play on numerous occasions. Bobby played just good enough to win giving a weak spot. Pooky gave the same opponent a MONSTER spot and played jam up to win..so I personally would have to give it to Pooky..but then again, I haven't seen Bobby's REAL game. That is a match I'd like to see.

Has Keith ever played Bus Driver Ronnie? That is a great player. Perhaps in need of a heart transplant but a great player. He ran 100+ balls on me in straight pool, and can string racks in 9 ball with the best of them (as well as being a monster one hole player). If I played like him I would have no choice but to be in steady action. I don't really hear about him matching up anymore, although I know he's older and retired. That could play a part.

Any thoughts?

Bus driver Ronnie??? where is he from ???and what does he look like??? road player?? I may have seem him play???

 

[pimp]

I heard a rumor about Keith play Kirkwood in Grand Rapids and after going back and for for many hours Keith started wooping about playing for some real serious cheese. Well the story goes that Jasons backer showed up with the rediculously large amout of cash and Keith chickened out. Is that how it happend?

 

[mapman72]

Thanks for that

It's kind of funny reading this post, Mapman72. Keith actually spoke the same words about you. He has a difficult time when players rack their own balls and the wing ball keeps flying in the same pocket. When it happens 5 times in a row -- as it did in Laurel several days ago -- he will speak up.
Actually, he told me Wednesday night that he DELIBERATELY did not win on the hill-hill at Champions because he did not want to lose a friendship, FWIW, which is why the 5 ball did not go in the hole. After you vented your anger at him because he questioned you racking the balls ahead of the spot, he decided the win just was not worth it. If you ask him about it next time you see him, he may be able to explain it better than I on a forum.

JAM

I believe it. I did feel a little disrespected though, since I think I did run 5 out of the 7 racks in that match and only missed one ball the entire match. He could have expressed some congratulations (after the match) rather than getting so upset about my rack. What Keith didn't mentioned is that he made that same wing ball on every one of his breaks also, except for the break when he made the 9 I didn't complain about his racks.

If Keith missed that ball on purpose, shame on him. I would have thought that he would have known me better by now than to think that I would let something like that carry over to our friendship. I am a competitor, much like Keith. I am just not as good. I understand that if Keith beats me, then I should have done better with my opportunities. I don't make excuses and I only get upset with myself. But this is the third or fourth time that Keith has gotten pissed off about my racking and I am probably the most honest guy in the pool hall. Ask Keith the following question for me:

Do you know how it feels when you play some of the best pool of your life and beat a legend of the game, only to have them attempt to embarrass you by telling everyone in the pool hall that you cheated by making illegal racks? Then, after that, publicly admitting that they let you win because they didn't want to damage a friendship.

I think that Keith needs to realize that people like myself watched the Color of Money time and time again growing up. We didn't quote Tom Cruise. We quoted Keith McCready - over and over again. We respect him, his knowledge of the game, and his pool playing abilities. He can be the nicest guy in the world, as I found out the day I introduced him to my daughter. Although he gets disappointed to lose to someone like me, it is one of the highlights of my life. Let me enjoy that highlight without calling me a cheater or telling folks that you intentionally lost the match.

Tuesday night was similar to the first time I beat Pookie in a tournament. I was on top of the world, thinking, "Wow, I played great. This guy's got respect for me now and my game is really improving. I'm so happy." My thoughts were then interrupted by a Pookie yelling, "THIS KID'S NO GOOD, HE'S GOT THE 7 BALL FROM ME IF ANYONE WANTS TO PUT HIM IN ACTION!" It's a shame that so many good players react this way when an underdog plays great and actually beats them. I wonder if other underdogs feel the same way I do when that happens?

Last night, after you had left, I played Jersey John. He beat me and got some good rolls. He also made balls on the break. I didn't play my best, and he played pretty good. I consider myself the favorite (slight) in that game and I came up short and was very dissappointed that I didn't make the finals. After the match, I walked up to John, extended my hand, and said, "Great shooting. You played very well. Good luck in the finals." To me, that just seems like the way it should be. When Keith and I were done the other night and I extended my hand, he slapped it without even looking at me or saying a word. That didn't seem like the reaction that I would get from a person that missed on purpose because he wanted me to win....but who knows. He makes that shot 97 out of 100 times.

 

[mapman72]

Rack Your Own

Could Keith inspect the rack even though he was racking his own? This could have solved any problems after the first time keith suspected Mapman was giving himself a shifty rack. I've seen Buddy Hall do it to opponents to the point of annoyance but it's his right...and their right to do it right back to him.

I'm just going to put it out there. This is no secret, so here it goes. Keith is not a conscienscious racker. He pushes the balls up on the spot, wings the rack under the table, then goes to break the balls. More times than not, his racks do not break well. Which is why Keith prefers to play in loser racks tournaments. When he plays a concienscious racker, he is generally getting the best of the breaks in a loser rack format. Now, this isn't intended to be a accusation against Keith's character. He isn't trying to bad rack anyone, it just happens that way because he doesn't take the time to inspect the entire rack. The truth of the matter is that for someone who understands the physics behind a 9 ball rack, the game is really unfair. Look at Corey Deuel. He can inspect a rack, notice the spaces, and figure out how he needs to hit the head ball to pocket the corner ball. This is terribly frustrating for the opponent, which is what happened the other night when I played Keith. Every rack I created, whether he made me change it or not, was on the spot. It just so happened that I was able to get the tightest rack by using the top half of the spot. From this position, you have a great chance of making the corner ball or the one in the side. It was working and it must have been frustrating for Keith. It was equally as frustrating for me when Keith was breaking and making the same corner ball everytime, but I knew that since it was a legal rack, it was useless (and poor sportsmanship IMO) to argue about it. So, for the record, the rack in question, was a tight nine ball rack on the top half of the spot. The base of the one ball was resting on the spot, just above the center of the spot.

 

[Koop]

I believe it. I did feel a little disrespected though, since I think I did run 5 out of the 7 racks in that match and only missed one ball the entire match. He could have expressed some congratulations (after the match) rather than getting so upset about my rack. What Keith didn't mentioned is that he made that same wing ball on every one of his breaks also, except for the break when he made the 9 I didn't complain about his racks.

If Keith missed that ball on purpose, shame on him. I would have thought that he would have known me better by now than to think that I would let something like that carry over to our friendship. I am a competitor, much like Keith. I am just not as good. I understand that if Keith beats me, then I should have done better with my opportunities. I don't make excuses and I only get upset with myself. But this is the third or fourth time that Keith has gotten pissed off about my racking and I am probably the most honest guy in the pool hall. Ask Keith the following question for me:

Do you know how it feels when you play some of the best pool of your life and beat a legend of the game, only to have them attempt to embarrass you by telling everyone in the pool hall that you cheated by making illegal racks? Then, after that, publicly admitting that they let you win because they didn't want to damage a friendship.

I think that Keith needs to realize that people like myself watched the Color of Money time and time again growing up. We didn't quote Tom Cruise. We quoted Keith McCready - over and over again. We respect him, his knowledge of the game, and his pool playing abilities. He can be the nicest guy in the world, as I found out the day I introduced him to my daughter. Although he gets disappointed to lose to someone like me, it is one of the highlights of my life. Let me enjoy that highlight without calling me a cheater or telling folks that you intentionally lost the match.

Tuesday night was similar to the first time I beat Pookie in a tournament. I was on top of the world, thinking, "Wow, I played great. This guy's got respect for me now and my game is really improving. I'm so happy." My thoughts were then interrupted by a Pookie yelling, "THIS KID'S NO GOOD, HE'S GOT THE 7 BALL FROM ME IF ANYONE WANTS TO PUT HIM IN ACTION!" It's a shame that so many good players react this way when an underdog plays great and actually beats them. I wonder if other underdogs feel the same way I do when that happens?

Last night, after you had left, I played Jersey John. He beat me and got some good rolls. He also made balls on the break. I didn't play my best, and he played pretty good. I consider myself the favorite (slight) in that game and I came up short and was very dissappointed that I didn't make the finals. After the match, I walked up to John, extended my hand, and said, "Great shooting. You played very well. Good luck in the finals." To me, that just seems like the way it should be. When Keith and I were done the other night and I extended my hand, he slapped it without even looking at me or saying a word. That didn't seem like the reaction that I would get from a person that missed on purpose because he wanted me to win....but who knows. He makes that shot 97 out of 100 times.

Nobody has mentioned Little John which is surprising to me.

The above post is really disturbing. I would have liked to have thought that when you reached a certain level and were able to beat the top dogs once in a while, there would be a certain level of mutual respect. I really like Keith and hope he responds because this post is disturbing.
Mapman72, regardless of how you won, congratulations.

Koop

 

[cuesmith]

Who is "SDKid," Black-Balled?

BTW, I heard it through the grapevine that James Waldon was heading to Mexico several days ago to play Rafael Martinez.

I've seen great players who do just fine on the tournament trail, but get them in the pit playing for big bucks, and they fold like a lawn chair. Some players, though, can play BETTER for the money than they do in a race-to-9 tournament setting.

I think Scott "The Freezer" Frost, Marcus "The Little Napolean" Chamat, Tony "T-Rex" Chohan, North Carolinian Tony Watson, Filipinos Santos and Bustamante, Mississippi's Finest Little John, Alex "The Lion" Pagulayan, Seattle's Harry Platis, and Shannon "The Cannon" Daulton have a demonstrated track record as being "top money players." JMHO, FWIW!

Pookie from Virginia used to be a frequent flyer on the action circuit, but he's now MIA.

JAM

I'm a little surprised you missed Efren Reyes and Jose Parica on your list. I'm sure it was just an over sight as you well know their gambling prowess!

Was really glad to hear that it's likley that Raphael is OK! I always liked Raphael. He spent a little time in the Cincinnati area and was over to my shop a few times. He was on the ESPN Classic yesterday which was a funny thing, because it kinda brought him to mind and I actually said a little prayer hoping he was well. Then today I read your post....

just more hot air!


Sherm

 

[The Kiss]

Who is "SDKid," Black-Balled?


I've seen great players who do just fine on the tournament trail, but get them in the pit playing for big bucks, and they fold like a lawn chair. Some players, though, can play BETTER for the money than they do in a race-to-9 tournament setting.



OMG you are too funny in my vast colorfull aresenal I have never heard " Fold like a lawn chair.."....Adding that to my data base.. Thanks for a laugh

 

[Egg McDogit]

jam, you know if planning on doing the exhibitions for a while? I'd like to go check em out

thanks

There's a new pool room on Route 214 off of the Beltway (I-495), and its name escapes me at present. If you get off Route 214 off the Beltway going towards D.C., the pool room is on the left-hand side, about 2-1/2 miles down.

Every Wednesday, they have been holding one-pocket exhibitions with Bus Driver Ronnie, Strawberry, Bobby Hawk, "Jackie Robinson," Danny Green, Jerry Slivka, and quite a few other local greats. If I can find out more info about it, I'll post it up.

 

[Keith McCready]

I'm just going to put it out there. This is no secret, so here it goes. Keith is not a conscienscious racker. He pushes the balls up on the spot, wings the rack under the table, then goes to break the balls. More times than not, his racks do not break well. Which is why Keith prefers to play in loser racks tournaments. When he plays a concienscious racker, he is generally getting the best of the breaks in a loser rack format. Now, this isn't intended to be a accusation against Keith's character.

Joey, I like a good competition, but when I see that side ball flying in the same pocket every single game in a "rack your own," I am going to question the rack after so many games. It's not just you. I would question anyone, and I think you would, too.

If I was quiet as a church mouse and let everybody rack the balls the way they wanted to, I would never win a match, but I am a competitor, as you stated, and I'm just trying to win.

As far as you putting it out there about me being "not a conscientious racker," when you've been beat up as many times as I have, you just get to a point where you get really tired of it all. I've been playing pool for 40 years, and I know a good rack when I see one and I know a bad rack when I see one.

Back in the late '70s and early '80s, that side ball NEVER flew in any game the way it does today, and if a player could run a 6-pack, it was because he ran a 6-pack, not because he racked good. The rack-your-own format came in the '90s.

If you want to express yourself to me in person, Joey, we see each other most every week, but you don't need to try to belittle me on AzBilliards forum. If I was to talk bad about players on a forum, I'd hate to tell you how many players I could talk bad about. I've been bashed on this forum before, but I try to respond the best way I know how without hurting somebody's feelings and end it on a positive note. Seeing that we know where each other stands, let's try to move forward and play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Still friends?

Keith

 

[Mick012656]

Great response Keith, I applaud you for the way you handled the "I'm just going to put it out there." comment. Some don’t think they are questioning a person’s character nor do harm to when they make remarks like that. If that was the intent this forum in my opinion is not the place for it. Again, you did a great job in responding!

 

[APAgeek6]

Tuesday night was similar to the first time I beat Pookie in a tournament. I was on top of the world, thinking, "Wow, I played great. This guy's got respect for me now and my game is really improving. I'm so happy." My thoughts were then interrupted by a Pookie yelling, "THIS KID'S NO GOOD, HE'S GOT THE 7 BALL FROM ME IF ANYONE WANTS TO PUT HIM IN ACTION!" It's a shame that so many good players react this way when an underdog plays great and actually beats them. I wonder if other underdogs feel the same way I do when that happens?

I hate to say it, but more often then not, this is how the up and coming player gets treated by the better players.
I've had this same exact thing happen to me a few times over the years. Even once you get to a pretty respectable level of play, you still hear the same knid of crap. Can be pretty hard to take.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I hate to always say "Efren, Efren, Efren", but seriously, does anyone want to play this guy for the cash? If he isn't one of the best, if not the best, players for the cash, I don't know who is.

 

[mapman72]

To My Friend

Joey, I like a good competition, but when I see that side ball flying in the same pocket every single game in a "rack your own," I am going to question the rack after so many games. It's not just you. I would question anyone, and I think you would, too.

If I was quiet as a church mouse and let everybody rack the balls the way they wanted to, I would never win a match, but I am a competitor, as you stated, and I'm just trying to win.

As far as you putting it out there about me being "not a conscientious racker," when you've been beat up as many times as I have, you just get to a point where you get really tired of it all. I've been playing pool for 40 years, and I know a good rack when I see one and I know a bad rack when I see one.

Back in the late '70s and early '80s, that side ball NEVER flew in any game the way it does today, and if a player could run a 6-pack, it was because he ran a 6-pack, not because he racked good. The rack-your-own format came in the '90s.

If you want to express yourself to me in person, Joey, we see each other most every week, but you don't need to try to belittle me on AzBilliards forum. If I was to talk bad about players on a forum, I'd hate to tell you how many players I could talk bad about. I've been bashed on this forum before, but I try to respond the best way I know how without hurting somebody's feelings and end it on a positive note. Seeing that we know where each other stands, let's try to move forward and play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Still friends?

Keith

Of course we're friends. I didn't bash or belittle you. I just pointed out two things: 1. from what I've seen, you rack the balls in 0.4 seconds and go to the head of the table and break. 2. the way you treated me the other night left a sour taste in my mouth, much like JAM pointing out today that you intentionally lost to me. Please know that I respect you and your abilities greatly. Look back to my posting where I say that 1 victory against you makes my year. And I would never want you to be anything other than Keith McCready, which is never quiet like a church mouse. The second time we ever played, you were winning 5-0 and I won a game and 4 packed you, and while I was racking you said, "Where the hell did this little devil come from?". The whole pool room laughed and that is one of my best memories in pool. Of course, I dogged the 7 next game and you won 7-5.

I did come out and say that I didn't want to gamble with you because I could see us arguing and for money, we might get real upset at each other and not want to be friends again. But I followed that up by saying that I have learned so much from you in such a short period of time. If you still feel that I belittled you, I apologize. I am a good person and like I said before, I'm very honest. I think you know this. If I thought my racks were illegal, I wouldn't have broken them. So, with all this, I hope there's no hard feelings. And I hope you never LET me win again, if that's what truly happened. The next time we play we can designate a neutral racker if you want. I know you hate the rack your own. I am curious about something though (I'm being a smartass here)... In the old days, before rack your own, how did someone run a 6 pack without making a ball on the break?

Actually, now that I think about it, all this talk has made me a little more motivated to play you for some $$$. Maybe that was your plan all along. Obviously we can't play even, so suggest a fair game.

 

[mapman72]

What?

Great response Keith, I applaud you for the way you handled the "I'm just going to put it out there." comment. Some don’t think they are questioning a person’s character nor do harm to when they make remarks like that. If that was the intent this forum in my opinion is not the place for it. Again, you did a great job in responding!

How is saying that Keith McCready isn't a conscientious racker questioning his character? If you're a fan of Keith's, great, I am too. But I was merely pointing out that he racks really fast.

Everything in my posting was factual.

I knew I'd get the McCready fan club all pissed, let the bashing begin (bracing)...

 

[Mick012656]

I guess I misunderstood your intent and if that is the case you have my apology.

 

[mapman72]

Accepted

I guess I misunderstood your intent and if that is the case you have my apology.

Thank you. I will say that I knew Keith would be a little pissed by what I was saying and I wasn't sure what to expect as far as a reply. Keith did give a respectable reply. I will say that after I commented to JAM on not wanting to play Keith for $$$, I was a little upset about her posting to the whole world that Keith let me win the other night. That posting motivated me to tell the complete story. It's never good to let someone win, but then it's much worse having them find out about it after the fact. It made me feel like I was living a lie for the last 2 days. Truth be told, after the tournament the other night, I called my mom, dad, brother, girlfriend and two other friends and told them I beat Keith McCready. Now I have to call them back and tell them that he let me win.

 

[frankncali]

Keith is a great player and obviously mapman72 is a heck of a player as well.

Just from reading the posts I would agree with Mapman that the better players when beaten by someone either new or someone they feel is inferior
to them do lash out and try and belittle the lower rated player. I honest think its solely due to not consciously thinking about what they are saying.
The better pool players in a pool room or on a tour have a bit of a star quality. They are placed a bit on a pedestal and many when beat feel the need to try and remind everyone that the person that beat them should not have. They want to keep their place.
Even the comment by JAM about Keith losing was a slap in Mapmans face.
It was uncalled for. I have seen many players use excuses like this on numerous occassions. If they win all is good but if they lose its always that
their heart was not in it or they menat to lose so that they dont show speed
or any other numerous reasons.
I have only ever beaten one really top player in a tournament even and that
was David Grossman. I played him three times and the first two he killed me but was always nice. The third time I beat him and I thought I had played well but knew that I had gotten some breaks with making the 9 twice on the break and once early for a combo. Thats 3 games of our race to 9.
Afterwards I was fully expecting the challenge to gamble or a open remark about how I had gotten lucky but it never came. All he said was that it looked like I had gotten better and that I had made a really nice out in the last game. with me still being the weaker player and not wanting to piss him off I said that I had gotten lucky and that the 3 early ones were not skill.
I even went as far as to say that I dont play even with him and would not even take the 7 ball gambling. He just looked at me and said that I had beaten him 6 other games other than the early ones and that he did not play well enough to hold me back from winning in that set. It was suprising to me.
Afterwards I thought about what I was telling him about me getting lucky and I started laughing. I ended up saying everything I thought he was going to say. I almost was apologising for winning. He even came and watched my next match which I won against another good player.

One ???? for Keith
Do you think the balls were different then or that playing on Simonis made
a difference on the wing ball going in? or was it racks getting better?
PLayers becoming more observant?
There has to be a reason. I remember the old Mali backed cloth that was thick and slow. In the south you HAD to have a really good stroke to get around the table. Now it seems easier even in humid conditions.

 

[Keith McCready]

How is saying that Keith McCready isn't a conscientious racker questioning his character? If you're a fan of Keith's, great, I am too. But I was merely pointing out that he racks really fast.

Everything in my posting was factual.

I knew I'd get the McCready fan club all pissed, let the bashing begin (bracing)...

Joey, let's not continue this nonsense. Okay?

I'm trying to prepare myself to play in the U.S. Open right now, and I need to be a little positive about what I'm trying to accomplish. I don't need this aggrevation. So please do me a FAVOR and let's move on.

 

[frankncali]

As for top money players I think a few are missing from the ones mentioned.

Will Pay and Jack Cooney should be on the list.

Not exactly sure if the list is players that are not known as event players but play very well traveling or if its just any player that seems to play very well
for cash.
I know two guys that have made two trips across the country playing for $$$ and have returned both times with large amounts. Its still out there its just tougher to get. One is farily well known but the other was not as known.
The 2nd trip they were out for close to 4.5 months and did not book a loser.

Jimmy Wetch always seemed to do well traveling and playing for $$$. That was a few years back. Tony Chohans is one of the few players that I hear about today that is traveling coast to coast and playing. Lil John of course as well.
Expenses and lack of action seem to be the reasons.