Top Spin vs Force Follow

N

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
According to Robert Byrne (and I am assuming Bob Jewitt, since he is Byrne's tech advisor) you can't "overspin" a ball using follow. It will never rotate forward faster than it will move forward. I have high regard for both men and tend to agree with them. However, I have heard many other people say that force follow is defined as more forward spin than required for forward movement, i.e. overspin.

I was hoping Bob or some of you other smart people would shed some light on the subject.
 
I don't think he said you "can't" "overspin" the ball, I think he said you "can't do it for long" before natural roll takes over... kind of like spinning your car wheels on the road... only so long before friction takes hold...
 
it CAN be done,,,,,,,,,,

,,but it's better to ask a 3C player, because spin to cb speed ratio is what all 3c players deal with.
 
ndakotan said:
According to Robert Byrne ... I was hoping Bob or some of you other smart people would shed some light on the subject.
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I think you should read what he actually said on the subject. The practical test to see if you can get overspin is in his "Advanced" book.

On the Jacksonville Project video, what I call "retrograde" spin was visible on one sequence. By retrograde, I mean that part of the cue ball is moving backwards relative to the table just after being struck by the cue stick. For a follow shot, this would mean that as the ball leaves the tip, the bottom of the cue ball is moving towards you not just relative to the center of the cue ball but relative to the table.

On a train going north, there is a part of every train car that is moving south at all times. What is that part?

Whether retrograde spin can be achieved depends on how well your tip sticks to the cue ball. Whether it lasts over a significant disantce is for you to test under your conditions.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should read what he actually said on the subject. The practical test to see if you can get overspin is in his "Advanced" book.

On the Jacksonville Project video, what I call "retrograde" spin was visible on one sequence. By retrograde, I mean that part of the cue ball is moving backwards relative to the table just after being struck by the cue stick. For a follow shot, this would mean that as the ball leaves the tip, the bottom of the cue ball is moving towards you not just relative to the center of the cue ball but relative to the table.

On a train going north, there is a part of every train car that is moving south at all times. What is that part?

Whether retrograde spin can be achieved depends on how well your tip sticks to the cue ball. Whether it lasts over a significant disantce is for you to test under your conditions.
Click to expand...

The bottom part of the wheel.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should read what he actually said on the subject. The practical test to see if you can get overspin is in his "Advanced" book.

On the Jacksonville Project video, what I call "retrograde" spin was visible on one sequence. By retrograde, I mean that part of the cue ball is moving backwards relative to the table just after being struck by the cue stick. For a follow shot, this would mean that as the ball leaves the tip, the bottom of the cue ball is moving towards you not just relative to the center of the cue ball but relative to the table.

On a train going north, there is a part of every train car that is moving south at all times. What is that part?

Whether retrograde spin can be achieved depends on how well your tip sticks to the cue ball. Whether it lasts over a significant disantce is for you to test under your conditions.
Click to expand...


bob, answer me this, what cue does Byrne shoot with? Ive seen 3 videos, I believe the last one was trickshots vol 2, anyhow, I like the cue he uses.. The short ferrule, The hit, I watch them over and over just to admire the cue, but I have no clue to what it is..

by the way, the first video of BYRNe's I watched showed tangent lines, and also how to make curve shots, I just want you to know, to this day, noone ever has even come close to that, that video was light years ahead! that has been some time back.. So Im always interested in what you have to say... !


2wld4u
 
BRKNRUN said:
I guess I don't get it...

If the train.."wheel" is going north...the bottom part of the wheel will be moving in the opposite direction..."south".

What am I missing???
:confused: :confused:
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If the train is going north at 50 mph, then the axel of the wheel is going north at 50 mph. The top of the wheel is going north at 100 mph. The bottom of the wheel is still.

Relative to you sitting on the train, the top of the wheel is going north at 50mph and the bottom of the wheel is going south at 50 mhp. But relative to an observer on the ground, 50 mph must be added to both of these numbers

In fact those nasty tractor trailers cannot actually kick a stone backwards.

mike page
fargo
 
ndakotan said:
[...] However, I have heard many other people say that force follow is defined as more forward spin than required for forward movement, i.e. overspin.
[...]
Click to expand...

Whether it's *possible* to achieve overspin I don't know. But apparently the tip offset needed for overspin is somewhere in the vicinity of the miscue point and force follow shots at least generally don't have overspin.

I think "force follow" shots are really just follow shots with close-to-natural-roll-topspin *hit hard*.

When any cueball with natuaral roll topspin strikes an object ball full, it will be stopped spinning in place just after the collision. Then it will accelerate forward as long as it has overspin and then achieve natural roll once again.

I think "force follow" shots are merely those for which that acceleration takes a few inches or more and is visible. When all the acceleration happens over a half inch or less, you don't really notice it and you don't have the sense of a "juiced up" cueball.

BTW, do I know you ndakotan?

mike page
fargo
 
OK GENIUSES, ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

If you can't get overspin with top spin, why is it the harder you hit a cut shot with follow, the longer cueball stays on the tangent line, acting like center ball? BECAUSE THE CUEBALL IS SLIDING WITH TOPSPIN. WHEN THE TOPSPIN CATCHES AND THE CUEBALL LOOPS FORWARD OFF THE TANGENT LINE, THE CUEBALL STOPS SLIDING AND BEGINS ROLLING. COMMON SENSE. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?
 
cuetechasaurus said:
OK GENIUSES, ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

If you can't get overspin with top spin, why is it the harder you hit a cut shot with follow, the longer cueball stays on the tangent line, acting like center ball? BECAUSE THE CUEBALL IS SLIDING WITH TOPSPIN. WHEN THE TOPSPIN CATCHES AND THE CUEBALL LOOPS FORWARD OFF THE TANGENT LINE, THE CUEBALL STOPS SLIDING AND BEGINS ROLLING. COMMON SENSE. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?
Click to expand...

Stop yelling!

We're talking about the possibility of achieving overspin just by hitting a cueball with a stick.

It's true, as you say, that once a rolling cueball strikes an object ball, it suddenly has overspin. This is because at least some of its forward speed is taken away by the collision but essentially none of its forward spin is taken away.

mike page
fargo
 
mikepage said:
Stop yelling!

We're talking about the possibility of achieving overspin just by hitting a cueball with a stick.

It's true, as you say, that once a rolling cueball strikes an object ball, it suddenly has overspin. This is because at least some of its forward speed is taken away by the collision but essentially none of its forward spin is taken away.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...

Oh gee I'm sorry, did that hurt your ears? :rolleyes:

I almost forgot that talking in caps on the internet is taboo. I heard someone actually went blind from reading too many words in all caps! Sorry!
 
mikepage said:
Whether it's *possible* to achieve overspin I don't know. But apparently the tip offset needed for overspin is somewhere in the vicinity of the miscue point and force follow shots at least generally don't have overspin.

I think "force follow" shots are really just follow shots with close-to-natural-roll-topspin *hit hard*.

When any cueball with natuaral roll topspin strikes an object ball full, it will be stopped spinning in place just after the collision. Then it will accelerate forward as long as it has overspin and then achieve natural roll once again.

I think "force follow" shots are merely those for which that acceleration takes a few inches or more and is visible. When all the acceleration happens over a half inch or less, you don't really notice it and you don't have the sense of a "juiced up" cueball.

BTW, do I know you ndakotan?

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...

Mike,
Well you're giving definitions. How about defining what you are referring to as "force follow" in terms of cueball behaviour. I've heard that term thrown around rather loosely by many people so I'd like to know exactly what you're referring to for the purposes of this discussion.
Steve.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should read what he actually said on the subject. The practical test to see if you can get overspin is in his "Advanced" book.

On the Jacksonville Project video, what I call "retrograde" spin was visible on one sequence. By retrograde, I mean that part of the cue ball is moving backwards relative to the table just after being struck by the cue stick. For a follow shot, this would mean that as the ball leaves the tip, the bottom of the cue ball is moving towards you not just relative to the center of the cue ball but relative to the table.

On a train going north, there is a part of every train car that is moving south at all times. What is that part?

Whether retrograde spin can be achieved depends on how well your tip sticks to the cue ball. Whether it lasts over a significant disantce is for you to test under your conditions.
Click to expand...

So is the bottom line of what you are saying that ... though it is possible that the energy imparted to the cueball will be converted to more rotational velocity than to linear velocity, it is extremely difficult and of extremely short duration? Makes sense to me fwiw.
 
Bob Jewett said:
On a train going north, there is a part of every train car that is moving south at all times. What is that part?
Click to expand...
There is a part of the train wheel that is below the level of the track. That part is moving south for a small portion of its travel.

Also, a more esoteric answer could be that very close to 50% of the electrons in the atoms that make up the train are moving south relative to the ground.
 
catscradle said:
Mike,
Well you're giving definitions. How about defining what you are referring to as "force follow" in terms of cueball behaviour. I've heard that term thrown around rather loosely by many people so I'd like to know exactly what you're referring to for the purposes of this discussion.
Steve.
Click to expand...

My point is there's really no such thing as force follow, at least not something that deserves its own name. I think what people tend to mean by the phrase is a follow shot for which the cueball appears juiced up after a collision with an object ball and then visibly accelerates. My point is this is really no different from any follow shot. There's just an aspect of the cueball behavior that's more noticable when the shot is hit hard.

mike page
fargo
 
catscradle said:
So is the bottom line of what you are saying that ... though it is possible that the energy imparted to the cueball will be converted to more rotational velocity than to linear velocity, it is extremely difficult and of extremely short duration? Makes sense to me fwiw.
Click to expand...
Acutally, what you described happens for ALL follow shots (at least the shots that have natural roll right after impact), not only for the "force follow" case. It's just that much of the rotational velocity is immediately converted to linear veloctiy due to the friction of the cloth. If more energy is more towards the linear velocity, then the CB will skid immediately after impact.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
OK GENIUSES, ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

If you can't get overspin with top spin, why is it the harder you hit a cut shot with follow, the longer cueball stays on the tangent line, acting like center ball? BECAUSE THE CUEBALL IS SLIDING WITH TOPSPIN. WHEN THE TOPSPIN CATCHES AND THE CUEBALL LOOPS FORWARD OFF THE TANGENT LINE, THE CUEBALL STOPS SLIDING AND BEGINS ROLLING. COMMON SENSE. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?
Click to expand...


Remember speed canceles action. Back me up Beard. Don't let them kid you I could hear you just fine! Some people have sensitive ears I guess.
 
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