Top Ten Pool Players

I love debates like this. I agree with Jay's list above based on everything I've seen and read since I became interested in pool approximately 20 years ago. I probably would have Earl in my Top Ten. I honestly don't know much about Parica, but I don't doubt he's worthy of being in this discussion.
 
There's other Taiwan players that would be as well according to my opinion. But it's just my opinion.

Better at 10 ball or better at rotation? I would never claim that Efren, even in his prime, was the best in the world at 10 ball. But you said rotation, not 10 ball, and you said "any Taiwan top pros" today are better at rotation than Efren in his prime.
 
People knocking Efren's 9 ball abilities (or 10 ball for that matter) should remember that Efren somehow managed to make a comeback in 1996 vs Earl. I don't think anybody questions Earl's 9 ball abilities, so that is impressive. True, Earl melted down somewhat, but Efren played great in the final day. People should respect past players rather than degrading them. This is not to say that today's players don't reserve respect- they do- but guys in the past could play.
 
Better at 10 ball or better at rotation? I would never claim that Efren, even in his prime, was the best in the world at 10 ball. But you said rotation, not 10 ball, and you said "any Taiwan top pros" today are better at rotation than Efren in his prime.

10 ball is rotation. Rotation is 9 ball 10 ball and 15 balls. I just didn't specify 10 ball at first.

Anyways man. let's just agree to disagree that's all.
 
People knocking Efren's 9 ball abilities (or 10 ball for that matter) should remember that Efren somehow managed to make a comeback in 1996 vs Earl. I don't think anybody questions Earl's 9 ball abilities, so that is impressive. True, Earl melted down somewhat, but Efren played great in the final day. People should respect past players rather than degrading them. This is not to say that today's players don't reserve respect- they do- but guys in the past could play.

I agree. But for the break, I think Efren would probably be widely considered the greatest 9 ball or 10 ball player as well.
 
Thread tittle should be called top 10 players of the 80-90's because the real top players are actually the pros of today,

They're not.

Today's players only "seem" better because the equipment is far more forgiving and is overall more technologically advanced (low deflection shafts, jump and break cues, etc).

Someone will bring up the reduction of pocket size. I don't care. The reduced pocket size doesn't offset how faster and "truer" cloth, the magic rack, and other such modern conveniences have made the game easier.

Players don't need a stroke like they once did, playing on slow nap with old rubber, etc.

Case in point: We're seeing more older players than ever competing at the highest levels. A 61 year old Ernesto Dominguez finished 9th at last year's US Open. Warren Kiamco is still going very strong, possibly stronger than he ever has over the last few years, as is Rafael Martinez, Earl can still catch a gear and beat anyone in the world, Johnny Archer is one of the top 10 rated players in the world per Fargo, and of course, Efren is still a top 5 all around player in the world.

Nothing suggests today's players are any better.
 
Last edited:
They're not.

Today's players only "seem" better because the equipment is far more forgiving and is overall more technologically advanced (low deflection shafts, jump and break cues, etc).

Someone will bring up the reduction of pocket size. I don't care. The reduced pocket size doesn't offset how faster and "truer" cloth, the magic rack, and other such modern conveniences have made the game easier.

Players don't need a stroke like they once did, playing on slow nap with old rubber, etc.

Case in point: We're seeing more older players than ever competing at the highest levels. A 61 year old Ernesto Dominguez finished 9th at last year's US Open. Warren Kiamco is still going very strong, possibly stronger than he ever has over the last few years, as is Rafael Martinez, Earl can still catch a gear and beat anyone in the world, Johnny Archer is one of the top 10 rated players in the world per Fargo, and of course, Efren is still a top 5 all around player in the world.

Nothing suggests today's players are any better.


I disagree, I think in the older days the pockets were buckets. Now you have tighter pockets in most of the tournaments. Also, most of the Taiwan top pro players don't even use low squirt shafts so that's a non issue.

I think the competition today is much higher and the safety game has evolved a lot more than what it used to be.

So again, I think new players of today would smoke old players except games like 1 pocket and straight pool and such, Although, Thorsten Hohmann would most likely beat anyone at straight pool in the old days as well. The truth is that pool evolved and the competition got a lot more fierce. If you win a world 9 ball in 2015 I have much more respect for that than winning it in 1990 because you have to beat a lot of better players in 2015 than you would in 1990. Sure there were some good players too in 1990 but no where near as many as today with the invasion of the asian players who learns how to play pool from the time they are a child and have pool classes in their schools and the government pay the pro players... It's big over there, it's like their main sport almost and it's only normal that they are dominating and has become the best players ever.

This is just my opinion from what I have seen, I have seen the old school matches and I have seen these Asian monsters play, they run like 9 packs pretty often with ease.
 
I disagree, I think in the older days the pockets were buckets. Now you have tighter pockets in most of the tournaments. Also, most of the Taiwan top pro players don't even use low squirt shafts so that's a non issue.

I think the competition today is much higher and the safety game has evolved a lot more than what it used to be.

So again, I think new players of today would smoke old players except games like 1 pocket and straight pool and such, Although, Thorsten Hohmann would most likely beat anyone at straight pool in the old days as well. The truth is that pool evolved and the competition got a lot more fierce. If you win a world 9 ball in 2015 I have much more respect for that than winning it in 1990 because you have to beat a lot of better players in 2015 than you would in 1990. Sure there were some good players too in 1990 but no where near as many as today with the invasion of the asian players who learns how to play pool from the time they are a child and have pool classes in their schools and the government pay the pro players... It's big over there, it's like their main sport almost and it's only normal that they are dominating and has become the best players ever.

This is just my opinion from what I have seen, I have seen the old school matches and I have seen these Asian monsters play, they run like 9 packs pretty often with ease.

Pocket size is a non factor if the rest of the table conditions are piss easy, which they overall are in today's so called "evolved" game. And it also depended on the tournament in question. The toughest 9 ball world championship table I've seen was the in the 1994 Finals: A Diamond with 4.25" pockets, no Magic Rack of course, and very wonky speed, playing fast and slow when it ever it felt like it (probably due to the TV lights and the dry Vegas climate). Tournament conditions are a lot more controlled today.

On that note, the current WPA tournament tables can't go below 4.5" pockets per their standard. Combine that with Simonis 860 and use of the Magic Rack, and of course the game looks "evolved."

Once you get to a certain level, shotmaking isn't what is difficult about the game, so pockets above 4.25" won't have that much of an impact on overall play (note: Chinese 8 ball, which uses 3.75" snooker cut pockets actually has more break and run outs than regular 8 ball because of the heated table and Magic Rack giving easy spreads after the break. I believe the break and run out % was near 50. The IPT's break and run out percentage was around 15). Speed control and ball layout is more important to runout success, and modern conditions and equipment make those two elements of the game easier than ever before.

Defense and kicking has certainly evolved, and we can thank Efren and other Filipinos for that, and that evolved safety play was present in the 90's. After Efren revolutionized those aspects of 9 ball in the 80's, other players brought their own defensive games up to par. If anything, kicking and escaping from safeties has gotten worse/lazier because of the proliferation of the jump cue.

When I compare today's game to the past, I see much weaker strokes today that are still able to get cue ball action because of the fast cloth. No surprise Kiamco was a mid-level WPA player in the 90's, decidedly behind the Stricklands, Archers, Reyeses, and the players on the PBTA, but is now magically having his strongest years ever in his 40s.

Not that he isn't a great player, but he was a step down from the 90's greats, but can now play with anyone in the World. Same thing is happening with Ernesto. Always a great player, but he is having some of his strongest years in his 60s!

I wonder why that is?

Because the equipment has made the game more accessible.
 
Hmm Today's players being much better players would suggest that.

Nope.

Bustamante won his only 9 ball World Title in 2010, which is of course the modern pool era. In the 90's, he couldn't beat Efren, Earl, and the other top PBTA pros for major titles, and that's when he was in his physical prime.

Kiamco was a middling pro in the 90's. Now is one of the best player's in the world, at 45. He finished (way) behind oldies such as Ray Martin and Dallas West in the 94 WPA 9 ball world championship, now he can play almost even with Ko, Biado, etc. And keep in mind that the WPA was the "2nd" pro league to the PBTA in those days.

Ernesto is having a resurgence. As are many older players from the 90's who stood no chance of competing on the PBT with Earl, Efren, Varner, Sigel, Archer, etc.

If these fields are so tough, the aforementioned players should only be able to compete in regional tours, but they're posting higher finishes in their tournament careers than when they were in their prime.

Like I said, easier conditions=easier layouts=easier to play position and safeties, translating in the ability to consistently run more racks and steal a set from your opponent.

The equipment has gotten better. Players are still about the same in overall ability.
 
Last edited:
We can agree to disagree, you think older players were better and I don't, this can go on forever. I;m not even gonna bother addressing all your points because we simply think differently and you are not right, I am not right either. We are simply right in our own minds and that's the end of it. There is no facts here, it's all opinions.
 
Here's my pocket sizes btw so I can tell you that I agree pockets being used in tournaments are pretty big.

24wssop.jpg
 
We can agree to disagree, you think older players were better and I don't, this can go on forever. I;m not even gonna bother addressing all your points because we simply think differently and you are not right, I am not right either. We are simply right in our own minds and that's the end of it. There is no facts here, it's all opinions.

I'm not saying either generation was better. But you are flat out ignoring the very hard fact that equipment has driven much of the "skill" evolution you think is attributed to the players when in fact it's attributed to the much easier tournament conditions.

Don't focus too much on pocket size. It's doesn't define difficulty that much. Like I said, Chinese 8 ball, toughest pool pockets in the world, yet the players run out much more frequently than in good old fashioned regular 8 ball (I can show you the stats, but I hope you take my word for it).

The biggest obstacles a player faces when running out are typically the maintenance of his speed control and how well the balls are laying. Modern cloth has made speed control much easier than ever and the Magic Rack, not to mention pattern racking, has made layouts after the break much friendlier than ever. You almost never get a bad layout anymore, even if you have a "weak" break.

I'm actually trying to back up my argument with facts. I've shown how many older players who couldn't really cut it on the pro tour in the 90's are competing with these so-called toughest and deepest fields ever. Kiamco never finished higher than 5th in a major in his prime, now he can beat anyone. I'm not shitting on Kiamco, just demonstrating to you that the talent pool in the 90's wasn't any thinner than it is now. If it were, he should've been a constant threat in the 90's when he was in his physical prime, but he was finishing behind old timers in the WPA World Championship and kind of an afterthought to the pro heavyweights of the time (maybe he was better gambling, like most Filipino players).

I'm just of the thought that if you're going to make a claim (i.e., today's players are the best ever) it should be backed up with a legitimate argument. Carlo Biado beating the ghost 17-0 doesn't prove anything. Any top level pro, from 1960 or 2015 could do that.
 
I'm just of the thought that if you're going to make a claim (i.e., today's players are the best ever) it should be backed up with a legitimate argument. Carlo Biado beating the ghost 17-0 doesn't prove anything. Any top level pro, from 1960 or 2015 could do that.


I should have specified that I meant the asian players like Ko Pin Yi.

And beating the ghost 17-0 is no easy task, nothing to sneeze at for sure. IT wasn't to prove anything it was just to show that he beat the ghost 17-0 and a cool video to share.

I don't have to back up anything really. It's just my opinion that by what I've seen from the old pool videos and what I see from the top Asian players of today that I think the Asian players are better at pool. Well rotation anyways.Like I said, this is just my opinion and it differs from your own which is fine, but I'm not gonna claim to be right based on my subjective opinion and I hope you don't either.

Also, pocket size does make a big difference in running out percentage. try to play on my table and you would see what's up. My table is also super slow. No balls will go in the pocket if it touches the rail first,
 
Last edited:
I should have specified that I meant the asian players like Ko Pin Yi.

And beating the ghost 17-0 is no easy task, nothing to sneeze at for sure.

I don't have to back up anything really. It's just my opinion that by what I've seen from the old pool videos and what I see from the top Asian players of today that I think the Asian players are better at pool. Well rotation anyways.Like I said, this is just my opinion and it differs from your own which is fine, but I'm not gonna claim to be right based on my subjective opinion and I hope you don't either.

Also, pocket size does make a big difference in running out percentage. try to play on my table and you would see what's up. My table is also super slow. No balls will go in the pocket if it touches the rail first,

For us, yes, but top pros deal with pocket size much easier, and what typically hangs them up is losing the cue ball or having a tough layout.

17-0 is great, but Lassiter, Crane, Mosconi, guys who've run hundreds of balls would be easily capable of it as well. I think Lassiter has strung together 20 or so 9 ball racks.

Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree.
 
For us, yes, but top pros deal with pocket size much easier, and what typically hangs them up is losing the cue ball or having a tough layout.

17-0 is great, but Lassiter, Crane, Mosconi, guys who've run hundreds of balls would be easily capable of it as well. I think Lassiter has strung together 20 or so 9 ball racks.

Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree.

I actually don't think tables should have tighter than 4 and a half pockets. I think cheating the pockets is a big part of pool and even though my table have ridiculous tight pockets, I still prefer to play on regular tables.

I wish there was a video recording of that 20 pack.
 
I actually don't think tables should have tighter than 4 and a half pockets. I think cheating the pockets is a big part of pool and even though my table have ridiculous tight pockets, I still prefer to play on regular tables.

I wish there was a video recording of that 20 pack.

I agree. Pool is an offensive game, and I'm actually against the overly tight pocket movement.

For the professional tournaments, though, I'm against the Magic Rack, rack your own, and Simonis 860. On the fence about jump cues. That thief Kevin Trudeau had it right with bringing back nap. Rotation pool is a power/stroke game and the conditions should challenge the power AND accuracy of a player's stroke.

Now, you can use medium stroking speed for shots that used to require some real torque.

I think this is a reason the Taiwanese players are so good, and the Filipinos remain dominant. They still have the classic pool player stroking game in a era where conditions have seemed to move players (primarily the Europeans and young American juniors) toward snooker mechanics, which even Steve Davis has said (back in 2000 when conditions were different) aren't optimized for pool, but now work well under modern conditions and are easy to teach.

The Taiwanese and the Filipinos still have a uniqueness to their strokes, which I dig.
 
Fats was not a great player.

Fats should not be in the top 100 list. Or 1000 for that matter.

Personally (having seen him play) I would not put him in the top 10,000 all-time world-wide. He stole his nickname from a book and stole his persona from W. C. Fields

Numbers can be deceiving...

Someone who knows once told me that I was in the top 1% of players in the US. At first I thought it was a nice compliment, but an exaggeration...till I realized that meant I was in the top 10,000 or so! I certainly was that, - big deal!
 
Back
Top