Tough Low Deflection Shots

[TATE]

Good Thread Corey:

My thorn is this one:

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The outside English seems to bother me more than the Inside English.

JoeyA

The thing with this shot you show, to get maximum action, make sure your getting a lot of draw on it. The draw bends the cueball path before it hits the rail, so you don't need as much spin. My suggestion, try more draw and less spin.


Below -

With my Predator, what I have a hard time with is very thin cuts with lots of outside. I usually play these with inside if I have a choice and avoid the throw all together. For some reason the object ball doesn't seem to throw as much as a shot made with a conventional cue. Corey and I set up some radical throw/cut shots loading up on outside and I shot them a little better with a Tiger shaft than I did with my Predator.

By the way, as radical as this shot is, Corey makes it more often than not. I practiced it last night, and am about 2 for 10.


Chris

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[Patrick Johnson]

For some reason the object ball doesn't seem to throw as much as a shot made with a conventional cue.

This can't be true. Maybe with the low-squirt cue you're finally (accidentally) aiming it thin enough.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

The thing with this shot you show, to get maximum action, make sure your getting a lot of draw on it. The draw bends the cueball path before it hits the rail, so you don't need as much spin. My suggestion, try more draw and less spin.



Chris
-------------------------------------

Chris, that is exactly what I have been doing; using less side spin and more draw. The OB1 shaft that I use seems to put additional draw that does bend the cue ball's path to get the same shape.

JoeyA

 

[BVal]

I really can't think of any shots playing with a level cue that can be pulled off with a conventional shaft that can't be done with a Predator.

But... I do kind of wonder if Predators are subject to more miscues at the extreme edges of the cueball than a conventional shaft. I am used to mine, and I really try to stay away from extremes spin shots, but when some players switch to Predators, the first thing thay notice is they miscue more often using draw and extreme side spin. And it wasn't just with one tip type either, and they were good players.

I had a couple of thoughts about this wonder if the lack of weight at the end of the shaft causes the tip to slide off the cueball a little easier?

Chris

Is it really the shaft that is causing the miscues?

 

[JoeyA]

Joey, at the speed you need to hit that shot I'm betting it's solely the low squirt - I don't see how swerve could be a significant factor at that speed (unless you can make this with much less speed than I can).

pj
chgo

OK, Patrick, fair enough, (the cue and the object ball were pretty close together) how about this shot?

Now you are making me start to wonder if in fact the OB1 shaft can and does put more spin on the cue ball than other shafts.

Because if it isn't the swerve, it can't be the squirt because of the outside spin, then it may just that the unique design of the OB 1 shaft and ferrule can provide more spin than other shafts. I didn't really have this type of problem with a traditional maple shaft.

Anyways, I am back playing with the traditional maple shaft with a little thinner diameter and a very slight taper the first 14 inches.

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Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[TATE]

Chris, that is exactly what I have been doing; using less side spin and more draw. The OB1 shaft that I use seems to put additional draw that does bend the cue ball's path to get the same shape.

JoeyA

This is where I think the hollow ended cues get hurt. I really think they are prone to miscues on the really extreme sidespin shots, especially when combined with draw. I seem to miscue more with them. I pretty much avoid shots that require extreme edges of the cueball unless I scruff the tip and chalk up really well first.

Chris

 

[JoeyA]

This is where I think the hollow ended cues get hurt. I really think they are prone to miscues on the really extreme sidespin shots, especially when combined with draw. I seem to miscue more with them. I pretty much avoid shots that require extreme edges of the cueball unless I scruff the tip and chalk up really well first.

Chris

I haven't been miscueing much so miscue is not my particular problem.

It seems that with low outside English shots the OB 1 shaft is throwing the object ball more than I am used to OR the lack of squirt is magnifying the effective swerve. Or maybe I just don't know how to play with an OB1 shaft.
JoeyA

 

[TATE]

Is it really the shaft that is causing the miscues?

On shots hit more than a tip off center, I think so, but I can't prove it. I've experienced it a little myself on extreme shots, and it is one of the common observations I've heard from players switching to a hollow shaft cue. I think for the same reasons masse's are more difficult. My theroy is the tip has a tendancy to bounce off the edge rather than to propel though it due to the lighter weight on the end.

Chris

 

[JoeyA]

OK, Patrick, fair enough, (the cue and the object ball were pretty close together) how about this shot?

Now you are making me start to wonder if in fact the OB1 shaft can and does put more spin on the cue ball than other shafts.

Because if it isn't the swerve, it can't be the squirt because of the outside spin, then it may just that the unique design of the OB 1 shaft and ferrule can provide more spin than other shafts. I didn't really have this type of problem with a traditional maple shaft.

Anyways, I am back playing with the traditional maple shaft with a little thinner diameter and a very slight taper the first 14 inches.

Let's see if this table takes. I probably didn't have enough Wei on it.

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Hope this picture better illustrates the shot.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[BVal]

On shots hit more than a tip off center, I think so, but I can't prove it. I've experienced it a little myself on extreme shots, and it is one of the common observations I've heard from players switching to a hollow shaft cue. I think for the same reasons masse's are more difficult. My theroy is the tip has a tendancy to bounce off the edge rather than to propel though it due to the lighter weight on the end.

Chris

I use a 314-2 and used to use the Z-2. I personally rarely use extreme english to begin with but the times I have used it I was not shooting very hard at all. I guess I will have to try a few more things to see if I see the same things. Your theory seems it would make sense though.

BVal

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Ok, I pocketed this shot 8x each with a 3.9 oz, 30", Tiger "X" Shaft & Sniper Tip 12.96mm (Dime) and shot it with a 3.5oz, 30" 314-2 & Sniper 12.70mm (Dime) using the same handle a Tiger TSP-P. The best draw to spin effect was "A" with the "X" Shaft (I did not miss this shot even once). "B" is the best I could do with the 314-2 shaft (I overcut the pocket the first 3x, untill I got the aim spot down).

Now granted I play with an X-Shaft as standard so it makes sense that I did not miss those and missed with the 314-2 3x. But after I found the aim point with the 314-2 I made 8 straight, but could never get the juice on the rock.

Also, I noted that I had to use less english just to pocket the ball in the corner with the 314-2 or I'd completely overcut it.

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Oh yeah, and this is on a Brunswick Gold Crown I with 860 Simonis, 4 1/2" flared pockets and German Rubber (Artemis?).

Edit note: I fogot to include the tip diameter, shaft weight, shaft length and the fact the I used the same handle on both shafts.

 

[TATE]

I use a 314-2 and used to use the Z-2. I personally rarely use extreme english to begin with but the times I have used it I was not shooting very hard at all. I guess I will have to try a few more things to see if I see the same things. Your theory seems it would make sense though.

BVal

I was wondering, why did you switch and do you like the 314-2 better? I like my 314-2 a lot and was wondering if i should try a Z-2 because I like a pretty stiff cue, and the taper of the Z leads me to think it would be very stiff.

Chris

 

[JoeyA]

Ok, I pocketed this shot 8x each with a Tiger "X" Shaft & Sniper (Dime) and shot it with a 314-2 & Sniper (Dime). The best draw to spin effect was "A" with the "X" Shaft (I did not miss this shot even once). "B" is the best I could do with the 314-2 shaft (I overcut the pocket the first 3x, untill I got the aim spot down).

Now granted I play with an X-Shaft as standard so it makes sense that I did not miss those and missed with the 314-2 3x. But after I found the aim point with the 314-2 I made 8 straight, but could never get the juice on the rock.

Also, I noted that I had to use less english just to pocket the ball in the corner with the 314-2 or I'd completely overcut it.

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Oh yeah, and this is on 860 Simonis with 4 1/2" flared pockets and German Rubber (Artemis?).

Corey, do you have an OB1 shaft that you can try that shot with? I would like to work out with several different shafts all with the same butt and tips. Having a Bender cue generally prohibits you from experimenting with so many different shafts. It's hard to justify testing shafts that would generally be a little hard to move after the testing....

Oh yeah, just to be fair, do you sell Tiger X shafts?
Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...after I found the aim point with the 314-2 I made 8 straight, but could never get the juice on the rock.

Also, I noted that I had to use less english just to pocket the ball in the corner with the 314-2 or I'd completely overcut it.

Judging by your second comment (hitting too thin) your 314 is lower squirt than your X. So rather than use less spin with it, why not just adjust your aim? Then you probably wouldn't be thinking you can't juice the rock with the 314.

pj
chgo

 

[BVal]

I was wondering, why did you switch and do you like the 314-2 better? I like my 314-2 a lot and was wondering if i should try a Z-2 because I like a pretty stiff cue, and the taper of the Z leads me to think it would be very stiff.

Chris

I switched to the 314-2 because the Z-2 was too skinny for my liking. I am much more consistant with the 314-2 and I like it much better. With the Z-2 I found when I missed a shot - I missed it bad (unneccessary or unintended english). That was my experience but I wouldn't let it stop you from trying it out - after all that is the only way you will really know if you like it or not.

BVal

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Corey, do you have an OB1 shaft that you can try that shot with? I would like to work out with several different shafts all with the same butt and tips. Having a Bender cue generally prohibits you from experimenting with so many different shafts. It's hard to justify testing shafts that would generally be a little hard to move after the testing....

Oh yeah, just to be fair, do you sell Tiger X shafts?
Thanks,
JoeyA

Naw, I don't have an OB-1 around. But if anyone wants to send me a Radial 30" one I'd be happy to compare em.

Ha, ha........I might have an X shaft or two

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Judging by your second comment (hitting too thin) your 314 is lower squirt than your X. So rather than use less spin with it, why not just adjust your aim? Then you probably wouldn't be thinking you can't juice the rock with the 314.

pj
chgo

Could be, but adjusting the aim for this type of shot is real hard because there is a lack of reference point for my aim. My cue tip is going into outer space instead of a portion of the object ball.

 

[Jimmy M.]

You should play that great game 7-ball .

That truly is a great game.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Last one for today

This shot proved to be frustrating.

Give me some tough scenarios and I'd be happy to give comparisons (the only excuse I have to hit balls at work ).

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[Snap9]

So far swerve and squerve have no effect to me at speed. Problems with the engineered shafts and I don't care which manufacturer it is is THROW.

Corey showed a prime example with the cut shot turning into a opposite end bank. You are hitting the ball properly at the exact point to pocket the ball, but the imparted english to make position is throwing the shot away from the pocket than reversing the spin to pocket in the opposite end.

Now PJ------you always tend to chime in with squerve and swerve. Do you even understand the concept of throw, and how it transfers spin to the object ball to change the object ball (not the cue ball) path. Engineered shafts tend to throw shots a lot easier than convential shafts.

JoeyA-----All the shots you diagrammed were missed due to Throw. Hell I have set them up and run into them multiply times during matches. The only way not to miss is to realize and adjust. Quarter ball adjustment on the cueball is what seems to work. Set your shot up----aim center ball to the exact object ball position, and then completely move that entire angle one tip over. I believe the tip moves are inside for inside and outside for outside. The cueball still moves in a straight(non swerve) path, but the adjustment compensates for the throw on the object ball. The harder the stroke/shot the more compensation needed.