Tough Low Deflection Shots

Snap9 said:
So far swerve and squerve have no effect to me at speed. Problems with the engineered shafts and I don't care which manufacturer it is is THROW.

Corey showed a prime example with the cut shot turning into a opposite end bank. You are hitting the ball properly at the exact point to pocket the ball, but the imparted english to make position is throwing the shot away from the pocket than reversing the spin to pocket in the opposite end.

Now PJ------you always tend to chime in with squerve and swerve. Do you even understand the concept of throw, and how it transfers spin to the object ball to change the object ball (not the cue ball) path. Engineered shafts tend to throw shots a lot easier than convential shafts.

JoeyA-----All the shots you diagrammed were missed due to Throw. Hell I have set them up and run into them multiply times during matches. The only way not to miss is to realize and adjust. Quarter ball adjustment on the cueball is what seems to work. Set your shot up----aim center ball to the exact object ball position, and then completely move that entire angle one tip over. I believe the tip moves are inside for inside and outside for outside. The cueball still moves in a straight(non swerve) path, but the adjustment compensates for the throw on the object ball. The harder the stroke/shot the more compensation needed.
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Low-deflection shafts don't create more throw... or the difference is so minimal. They just make the cueball deflect less.
 
Low deflection shafts put more throw on the object ball, but thanks for the effort Sensation.
 
Snap9 said:
Low deflection shafts put more throw on the object ball, but thanks for the effort Sensation.
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What creates throw? The speed of rotation the cueball ball has. For the exact same english-hit on the cb. Maybe is there a little more rotation imparted from a low-deflection shaft... sooooo little. The big difference is the cb deflection (30%-40%). That's big.

SO, if the contact point is the same, cb speed too. You maybe are going to miss ever so slightly. I have been shown no evidence that a low-deflection shaft imparts more rotation (any spin-english) than a regular shaft. Still, I'm curious.

According to me, you THINK the contact point is the same, but it isn't due to deflection. The difference of throw, if there's one, doesn't change much the outcome (not enough to regularly miss balls that are hit right on what you think is the *ideal contact point* all other things being equal).
 
Actually quite simply PJ. Since the low deflection does not deflect as much as a normal shaft the shot line does not deviate as much. Hence more of the english is being transferred on the direct path. Which in turn puts more cue ball to object ball throw transfer.

If you have a standard and a Low-deflection shaft try this experiment. Set the cue ball and object ball in a straight line. Put the object ball on the foul line one diamond out. Object ball one diamond up and straightline to the diamond at the head rail. It does not matter if the balls are inches apart or feet apart. Throw is the transfer of english from ball to ball changing the predicted straightline path. Aim directly center ball to the one diamond out. Do not move your bridge hand, but put extreme left center ball english. Try this shot with both shafts with identical speeds. Do soft all the way to hard strokeshots.

The best I could ever do with a natural shaft was the one pocket shot two railer in upper right corner. Best with a predator was one diamond up the side rail from the bottom right corner pocket. This is called throw, and it occurs regularly with a Low deflection shaft.
 
Actually quite simply PJ. Since the low deflection does not deflect as much as a normal shaft the shot line does not deviate as much. Hence more of the english is being transferred on the direct path. Which in turn puts more cue ball to object ball throw transfer.
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The part I highlighted seems to be the heart of your theory, but I can't figure out what it means.

Anyway, I think you're right that a low-squirt shaft might transfer slightly more power for the same stroke, but I don't think that means more throw. In fact, it may mean less, since throw is maximum at lower speeds.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The part I highlighted seems to be the heart of your theory, but I can't figure out what it means.

Anyway, I think you're right that a low-squirt shaft might transfer slightly more power for the same stroke, but I don't think that means more throw. In fact, it may mean less, since throw is maximum at lower speeds.

pj
chgo
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You make a good point here. I also think the heart of Snap9's theory is legitimate and he's right about it. Though, influence of the difference in english imparted on the cueball is too minimal to make much of a difference in most cases.
 
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1ANwk1POHU3QaMc2RbJF@

Object ball A is the two railer with the natural shaft.
Object ball B is the throw results with a Low deflection shaft.

There are numerous other shots that come up while playing one-pocket that manipulate the object balls path with THROW.

When I get the hang of this cue table I will try to put some more up.
 
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Snap9 said:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1ANwk1POHU3QaMc2RbJF@
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This shot is not a good test the way you explained it. If you pivot, deflection will have an impact. You want to compare ONLY THROW. I DO think llow-deflection shafts impart a bit more spin on the cb.

I'm done with it. I know I'm right. Not so sure about the fact that a low-def shaft imparts more english, but your theory seems good to me and my logic. Although, difference is just not enough.
 
Snap9 said:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1ANwk1POHU3QaMc2RbJF@

Object ball A is the two railer with the natural shaft.
Object ball B is the throw results with a Low deflection shaft.

There are numerous other shots that come up while playing one-pocket that manipulate the object balls path with THROW.

When I get the hang of this cue table I will try to put some more up.
Click to expand...

Keep coming with it Snap9. I am interested in hearing more of what you think.

A couple of simple tips for the WEI table:

When you double-left click with your mouse, on the cue ball or the object ball, that will start a line. YOu then are not holding the mouse button down but can move the line (arrow) any direction you want. When you get to the spot you want, click with the left mouse button one time. That will put a temporary stop on the arrow an you can continue going to another location (to show three rail shape for example). When you get to the final destination with the arrow, you double click that spot and the arrow will remain fixed at that final spot.

There are also some tutorial videos that show simple and interesting moves with the cuetable.

Good luck and PM me if you have questions about a particular problem with cuetable.

And keep coming with your thoughts regardless of the heat they put on you. :D ( I think you may be able to play some... ) :)

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
The thing to keep in mind is the new Tiger shafts have been tweaked and the ones Corey is using right now are actually pretty low squirt. They're great shafts. I hardly had to adjust at all compared with my Predator 314-2.

Chris
 
Now PJ------you always tend to chime in with squerve and swerve. Do you even understand the concept of throw, and how it transfers spin to the object ball to change the object ball (not the cue ball) path. Engineered shafts tend to throw shots a lot easier than convential shafts.
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I do understand it. You have some misperceptions about it, but that's common. It's kind of tricky to get right.

Engineered shafts tend to throw shots a lot easier than convential shafts.
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I don't think so. You haven't shown any evidence of this, or a logical reason it would be true. This shot, for instance, doesn't do what you think because of throw:

CueTable Help



Outside spin might throw the object ball away from the long rail, but it would also transfer the wrong spin, widening the bank angle rather than shortening it. With no spin or inside spin, throw would push the object ball toward the long rail, not away from it. There's no way throw would drive the object ball away from the long rail and then the transferred spin would bring it back to the other corner pocket. Although throw and transferred spin don't cause each other, they always act the same way together - they couldn't do what you suggest.

Throw is the transfer of english from ball to ball changing the predicted straightline path.
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No, it's not. Throw and transferred spin are different things caused by the same thing, like the sound of the cue ball hitting the object ball and the object ball's movement. The sound doesn't cause the movement; they just always happen together.

pj
chgo
 
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JoeyA said:
OK, Patrick, fair enough, (the cue and the object ball were pretty close together) how about this shot?

Now you are making me start to wonder if in fact the OB1 shaft can and does put more spin on the cue ball than other shafts. :)

Because if it isn't the swerve, it can't be the squirt because of the outside spin, then it may just that the unique design of the OB 1 shaft and ferrule can provide more spin than other shafts. I didn't really have this type of problem with a traditional maple shaft.

Anyways, I am back playing with the traditional maple shaft with a little thinner diameter and a very slight taper the first 14 inches.


CueTable Help



Thanks,
JoeyA
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Isn't that the same shot we were talking about?

I think you're cutting it too thin because your low-squirt shaft is squirting less and you're overcompensating (as if you're still shooting with a higher-squirt shaft). It is the shaft and its different squerve (I'm spelling it wrong so you'll understand) that's causing this difference, just not so much the swerve part of the equation as the squirt part.

pj
chgo
 
here JoeyA

Joey this shot is extreme left center english. You do not cut the ball but hit it direct center. The throw/cue ball english makes the cut for you, then the inside pinches the ball. The stroke is a smooth yet short stroke( very close to a punch) with the cue ball forward motion delayed. Cue ball will end up near your opponents hole behind the cluster while the object either being pocketed or close to your hole.

When this shot is hit too well on new simonis the object ball will actually go up table without hitting the bottom rail. Now this is throw.


CueTable Help

 
SQUERVE -Coined by Joey Aguzin - August 22, 2007

Patrick Johnson said:
Isn't that the same shot we were talking about?

I think you're cutting it too thin because your low-squirt shaft is squirting less and you're overcompensating (as if you're still shooting with a higher-squirt shaft). It is the shaft and its different squerve (I'm spelling it wrong so you'll understand) that's causing this difference, just not so much the swerve part of the equation as the squirt part.

pj
chgo
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I thought I had increased the distance between the cue ball and the object ball. (This Wei table picture could be the original one but I'm not going to go changing it)

When I shoot this shot with the OB1 shaft I think I am aiming at the contact point on the object ball with my shaft which is an enormous amount of difference from where I was aiming with a regular deflection shaft. It's a little tough to adjust beyond aiming at the contact point with low outside English, but perhaps that is it. I'll still be listening and watching what Snap9 has to say but I have to go back and read his last post again because I must have mis-read that. :o

It is good to see you knuckling under to world pressure to spell SQUERVE CORRECTLY; the way that the rest of the world sees it spelled. It appears that while you lack the humility to admit it, even you on occasion, can be made to conform in the face of world opinion. :p It's only been a month but you'll fall in line, eventually. ;)

I am however, thankful that you do not SQUIRM under criticism here on AZ when others disagree with your perspectives about pool. :D :D

Keep them coming.

JoeyA
 
Snap9 said:
Joey this shot is extreme left center english. You do not cut the ball but hit it direct center. The throw/cue ball english makes the cut for you, then the inside pinches the ball. The stroke is a smooth yet short stroke( very close to a punch) with the cue ball forward motion delayed. Cue ball will end up near your opponents hole behind the cluster while the object either being pocketed or close to your hole.

When this shot is hit too well on new simonis the object ball will actually go up table without hitting the bottom rail. Now this is throw.


CueTable Help

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Snap, I'm not sure if you meant to write what you wrote about the New Simonis reacting so opposite from everything I have experienced with new cloth. On that particular choke bank shot with new cloth I doubt I would ever be able to keep the object ball from hitting the back rail and I can "choke" a ball with the best. On a shot like this, new cloth will widen the angle not shorten it.

I may not fully understand the physics of throw or how much of it happens but I do know it exists and I use it quite frequently. I cannot provide a mathematical forumula to express it but like you, I think throw is an important ingredient to consider and to utilize whenever needed and your example of using throw on this shot is a good one. I believe a similar shot is in Fred the Beard's first book on banks.

Please correct me if I made a mistake about the benefit of new cloth as I may be missing something and would like to learn more.

Show some more shots using the Wei Table. That Wei guy is a freaking genius. :D :D

Thanks,

JoeyA (still believes Snap9 can play)
 
I have been working on a get out of jail shot in banks. Don't know if it is in Freddy's book or not, since I have never read or seen a copy in person. Give me a few minutes and I will draw up a table.


Or yeah I forgot. The new cloth will skid on the first rail ever so slightly, but when it catches on the second rail watch out. LOL

And Joey-----I believe we know some of the same one-hole players----since we are only a few states away. LOL
 
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Here's another throw shot

Every so slight cut angle with loaded up inside(right) center ball english. Throws the object ball just past the titty than reverses the spin to the opposite pocket. Every other bank is taken. Cue ball A is where the cue ball ends up.


CueTable Help




Joey I will try some other basic 9-ball shots that are effected by throw in awhile.
 
It goes.

Sensation said:
This last shot simply is impossible without hitting a bit of the titty.
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Actually have made that shot with hitting almost one full inch past the titty.
 
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