Tables in the 50's and 60's
Jay, I agree. Al was an artist at setting up GC's.
No one could use the excuse "the table got me".
Jay, I agree. Al was an artist at setting up GC's.
No one could use the excuse "the table got me".
Tournament Tables in the 50's and 60's?
- Thread starter mnorwood
- Start date
Big Tables
I've got an oversize 8' or "tournament" Brunswick Sport King . . . I believe Mosconi ran his 526 on a standard 8' Sport King in 1954. I remember, as Jay stated, lots of Gandy's and lots of Gold Crowns . . . the Sport King was a middle of the road "cost effective" alternative to a Gold Crown. In 1960, one could buy a new Sport King for about $700.
jay helfert said:
I've got an oversize 8' or "tournament" Brunswick Sport King . . . I believe Mosconi ran his 526 on a standard 8' Sport King in 1954. I remember, as Jay stated, lots of Gandy's and lots of Gold Crowns . . . the Sport King was a middle of the road "cost effective" alternative to a Gold Crown. In 1960, one could buy a new Sport King for about $700.
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DeepBanks said:
These are great tables, if yoiu can find a good one. I think the Sport Kings in High Street Billiards in Springfield, Ohio were also oversized ones. That was the most popular size back then in the Midwest. The regular size 4 x 8's were mostly down South.
I don't claim to be an authority on this. It is just my best recollection. On the East Coast, they were mostly playing on 9' tables all along.
vitalie tables
Terry O.
those tables were absolutely the tightest i ever played on..I tell stories about that tournament at the poolrooms on occassion and poeple just don't believe me(imagine that!!!) I made a ball that was hanging in the hole by kicking at the inside of the opposite side of the pocket..I was totally hooked!!! I was playing Lizard some cheap sets before the tournament AND we were both missing a bunch with Grady and some other players sitting up in the stands giggling at us.. They quit laughing when it was their turn..jay helfert said:
Terry O.
jay helfert said:
You sure are RIGHT that a great table tech is worth his weight in gold.
In many of the public halls...even some of the "serious" ones, there isn't more than 1 table in 10 that is set up properly....let alone perfectly. One skill that sets the greats apart from the also rans is their ability to recognize and QUICKLY adapt to a huge array of set ups.
Regards,
Jim
Ralph Kramden said:
Ralph, not to take ANYTHING away from Willie who may well have been the greatest a couple of issues should be noted.
Willie's 526, as I am sure you know, did not take place in a sanctioned tournament but at an exhibition.
He was a GREAT self-promotor and the demands he made on sponsors were legendary to the point of being infamous. That is probably why he played on an 8' with pockets he could back his car into. (5 1/2")
Still, 526 is a major achievment well deserving of the legend.
However, let me put in for another of my heroes, Babe Cranfield. He has recieved only a tiny fraction of the popularity of the other greats of the day (do a google and you'll see) but was ABSOLUTELY one of the greatest of all time.
He never got as much notariety because...as far as I can recall, he never played in a pro tournament except as a amateur. In fact, he won the world straight pool title in the mid 1960s if I recall correctly.
In addition, it is well know and generally accepted as fact that he ran 768 in a practice session but with credible witnesses which, in my opinion trumps Willie's 526 because as noted above, he didn't shoot it in a sanctioned ever either.
Willie was street smart enough to know that there would be an "asterisk" next to that feat because it didn't happen in a tournament so he went around and got numerous people to sign an "affidavit" that they had seen 526 in a row drop.
Babe had numerous witnesses too but didn't bother getting signatures, mostly I suspect, because he would have cared less.
He quit is "career" as an amateur in 1942 to join one of the armed forces. After the war he became a successful businessman and maintained his amateur status as a pool player all his life (If I am mistaken about that, please let me know.)
But back to the 768
A) It is known to have happened
B) There's no way that it took place on a bar box so it was either an 8 or 9 footer and what if he did it on a 9 footer!!! OMG!!!!!
C) The pockets COULDN'T have been bigger than 5 1/2.
So, in my mind, Babe and not Willie is entitled to be credited with the highest known run. Of course that will never happen because Willie's fabulous 526 is tatooed on everyone's brain.
I have always been interested but have not found out who holds the highest run in a sanctioned event.
Anyone know??
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
JIm,
There you go again.
You really need to do a bit of learning before you start pontificating.
There is much info about the record hi-run as close as the search
option on this site. Not least, the ONLY reason he played on an
8 ft was because he was required to play on a Brunswick table
if one was available. East High had only 8 ft Brunswicks
A few highlights:
1. NONE of the 2, 3, 4 hundreds of balls runs were done in tournaments.
Tournament matches were to 125 points, increased to 150
when they changed from 10' to 9' tables in atround 1950.
2. The few that are reconnized, were done in structured, announced,
exhibitions, performed by touring pros associated with Brunswick
3. It is an absolute untruth that Willie 'went around' gathering anything.
The affidavit was prepaired by a lawyer present at the exhib. Most
likely because there was an on going 'informal' competition amoung
the touring pros for hi-run honors. Willie had run 360-ish shortly
before. Crane had a run of over 300.
It is equally untrue that the pockets were 5 1/2, tho this is not
so widely<no pun intended> known nor well documented.
4. Back in the day, there was no interest in practice hi-runs other
than, maybe the people who made one - you wouldn't have
gotten your name in the paper for running a million in practice.
Dale<provider of those pesky facts some people hate so much>
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pdcue said:
Pontificate? Fine Dale...be a jerk if it suits you. I was merely praising one of the greatest and yet less well known players in the game...LIKE BOB JEWETT DID in one of his artices in which he referred to Babe's having strung together multiple 200 and out runs in sanctioned tournaments.
Pocket size? What WERE the pocket sizes on the 526 table and how do you know. Cite your source.
Willie set the world record by running 526 consecutive balls without a miss during a straight pool exhibition on March 19, 1954. To this day the record has not been toppled and many speculate it may never be bested. A handwritten and notarized affidavit[6] with the signatures of more than 35 eyewitnesses exists as proof of this feat.
The record was set on a 4 foot x 8 foot Brunswick pool table with 5 1/2 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club in Springfield, Ohio. However, today's standard for tables is much more difficult to play on than Mosconi's table, as today's standard tables are 9 foot x 4 1/2 foot with 4 1/2 inch pockets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Mosconi.
Fine, that's a wiki article but if you read it you will see that it appears quite authorititive. If you have a better source... bring it.
Re: the affidavit...WERE YOU THERE DALE? How do you KNOW that Willie didn't have anything to do with the lawyer gathering the signatures? PROVE IT!
Re: the tables at East High...do you think that Willie was FORCED to play an exhibition there? If you don't know that Willie was LEGENDARY for setting RIGID terms and conditions regarding everything having to do with the matches he played...exhibition or otherwise, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
Just google the TV match between Willie and Fats where Willie...according to the commentator at least...was making up rules ON THE FLY...which Fats just laughed off.
Finally and sadly, your reply never mentioned the name Babe Cranfield nor appplauded his HISTORIC achievement. Do you think that his achievement is not deserving of FAR more publicity than it has received? Do you think that such an achievement demonstrates nothing about his skill?
You really need to chill Dale.
av84fun said:
So Bob is a genius when it is convient?
Again, learn to use the search function, and stop just fabricating
whatever you wish the truth to be.
The size of the pockets has been discussed - if you would rely
on facts instead of fancy, you would know how I know.
Are you implying you were in attendance?
How can you PROVE the things you say? I thought so.
How did pointing out your aversion to writing the truth
become a criticisim of Babe? And, BTW, why do you care what I think
of his ability. Even better, which one of us do you think was aware
of his ball running skill first.
Dale<debunker, defender of truth, justice, and the American way>
pdcue said:
You are just HOPELESS. Are you unaware that employees of such ENORMOUS prominance tend to have commensurate influence over their employers?????????????????
Do you think that Brunswick was a DICTATOR and Mosconi was a PEON??????????
And if you could get your brain out of park long enough to open mouth/remove foot, you would realize that Babe Ruth exerted a LOT more influence over the New York Yankees than he did over the "institution of baseball"...if that is what your poorly crafted and ambiguous remark referred to.
But besides, what difference does it make HOW Mosconi OBTAINED his influence over Brunswick or Ruth over baseball????
The POINT was that Mosconi HAD the influence....HUGE influence.
(hint, Doug. There was more than one table manufacturer in Willie's day. I will let you fend for yourself in discerning the significance of that truth).
Bottom line anyone who does not know that Mosconi aggressively attempted to influence virtually all aspects of the matches he played in...in MINUTE detail, simply knows nothing about the recorded history of the man's life.
Whether you like it or NOT...Babe Cranfield was OBSERVED to have run A LOT MORE BALLS in the game of straight pool than Mosconi's 526 and NEITHER run took place in any sanctioned competition so Willie's run deserves NO GREATER SIGNIFICANCE to be attached to it than Cranfield's but sadly, that is not the case.
At it is noteworthy that you avoided answering specific questions of mine...such as your source of the FACTS concerning the pocket size (I posted a source and you did not) and other issues. Nevertheless, you criticize me (however incorrectly) that I avoid answering your questions.
Feet of clay old pal. (-:
Finally, refer to my comment to you in the aiming thread. Post with civility and on topic (to me) or don't expect a reply.
Game/Set/Match
(-:
I just watched the Willie v. Fats video...MC'd by Howard Cosell. Willie argued about Fats not wearing a jacket and then finally relented and took his off.
Cosell himself states that "Willie set the rules" and that Fats was hearing them for the first time.
Just all in keeping with Willie's LEGENDARY micro-management of the events he played in..to the extent that he could given the POWER he held over the game....i.e. do it my way or I won't play.
Gotta love him for that. What good are weapons if you don't use them!
(-:
At 2:25, this is the longest video of Willie that I know of (are there any others that long?) and it gives some great insight into his mechanics. This video was certainly later in his life and career and LOTS of pros changed their ways over time so Willie's mechanics in that video may well not mirror how he played 20 years prior.
But there are several angles...including DIRECTLY over head shots that shown CLEARLY that at THAT point in his life, Willie cocked his head significantly to the right of the line of his cue stick. I would say a GOOD 10-15 degrees to the right.
That made it very difficult (for me) to tell whether he held the cue directly under one or the other of his eyes or between them.
FUN video to watch. Great to watch Willie when he still had some GREAT game in him and to listen to Fats shoot his mouth off. He ragged on some guy who complained about some opponent griping about being sharked by a guy smoking a cigarette in the stands. Fats said the guy ought to play in a was museum. Classic Fats!
(-:
Jim
Cosell himself states that "Willie set the rules" and that Fats was hearing them for the first time.
Just all in keeping with Willie's LEGENDARY micro-management of the events he played in..to the extent that he could given the POWER he held over the game....i.e. do it my way or I won't play.
Gotta love him for that. What good are weapons if you don't use them!
(-:
At 2:25, this is the longest video of Willie that I know of (are there any others that long?) and it gives some great insight into his mechanics. This video was certainly later in his life and career and LOTS of pros changed their ways over time so Willie's mechanics in that video may well not mirror how he played 20 years prior.
But there are several angles...including DIRECTLY over head shots that shown CLEARLY that at THAT point in his life, Willie cocked his head significantly to the right of the line of his cue stick. I would say a GOOD 10-15 degrees to the right.
That made it very difficult (for me) to tell whether he held the cue directly under one or the other of his eyes or between them.
FUN video to watch. Great to watch Willie when he still had some GREAT game in him and to listen to Fats shoot his mouth off. He ragged on some guy who complained about some opponent griping about being sharked by a guy smoking a cigarette in the stands. Fats said the guy ought to play in a was museum. Classic Fats!
(-:
Jim