Transferring English

I have to disagree with CreeDo about spin transfer not being useful. You can setup a long (needs to be pretty long, short doesn't have time to work well) shot where the edge of a ball is just blocking the corner pocket. By using soft low sidespin you can spin the object ball around the blocking ball. You cut to miss the blocking ball and the OB will travel back in the opposite direction of the cut. I've found that shot really useful in 8 ball.

An even more obvious example is when you spin the ball into the pocket instead of cutting it, so that you can stop the cue ball dead.
 
if the object ball had no spin you would have seen just red and white halves, it did have some spin on it, however this shot was really demonstrating how to change the trajectory of the object ball more that impart spin on it.

the spin doesnt change the angle of the object ball unless it comes in contact with a cushion.

the videos mosconiac posted are the best representative that its possible.

if the balls are dirty or old they will impart more side on each other because its the grip between them that does it.

on new cloth with polished balls these effects are much harder to achieve.

sb..
 
By using soft low sidespin you can spin the object ball around the blocking ball. You cut to miss the blocking ball and the OB will travel back in the opposite direction of the cut. I've found that shot really useful in 8 ball.
Click to expand...

You may have found it useful to believe that, but it definitely isn't what's happening. If you set up a careful experiment you can prove it to yourself (although you may not want to).

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coopdeville
.. spin (on the object ball) is always applied as a result of a non 0 degree collision.
-cOOp
Bob Jewett said:
This is false. I don't know where you picked this up, but you really have to ask your source to clarify. I've posted contrary experiments and published contrary columns with examples that nearly anyone can do. Please read them and see where you went wrong.
Click to expand...

Bob,
Can you post a link for us?

I'd also like to see what spin you have to use to make that one pocket
bank shot. A diagram would be very helpful.
Thanks,
-cOOp
ps. these things can all be exaggerated by using balls that have some grip to them.
As we all know, billiard ball have little to no grip or, frictional effect. With friction
comes grip and spin transfer. Try it by spinning one basketball into another stationary
basketball. Spin transfer on billiard balls is obviously much less while a collision can cause
skidding and side spin to your object ball.
 
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coopdeville:
.. spin (on the object ball) is always applied as a result of a non 0 degree collision.

Bob Jewett:
This is false. I don't know where you picked this up, but you really have to ask your source to clarify. I've posted contrary experiments and published contrary columns with examples that nearly anyone can do. Please read them and see where you went wrong.

coopdeville:
Bob,
Can you post a link for us?

I'd also like to see what spin you have to use to make that one pocket
bank shot. A diagram would be very helpful.
Click to expand...

I think the diagram I just posted above is the experiment Bob's talking about - I learned it from him.

Here's the one-pocket shot he's talking about. You can also make it without using sidespin if it's a cut shot (from CB position A) - spin is put on the OB by the CB rubbing against it on the way by.

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

 
arsenius said:
I have to disagree with CreeDo about spin transfer not being useful. You can setup a long (needs to be pretty long, short doesn't have time to work well) shot where the edge of a ball is just blocking the corner pocket. By using soft low sidespin you can spin the object ball around the blocking ball. You cut to miss the blocking ball and the OB will travel back in the opposite direction of the cut. I've found that shot really useful in 8 ball.

An even more obvious example is when you spin the ball into the pocket instead of cutting it, so that you can stop the cue ball dead.
Click to expand...


HUH?????..randyg
 
pj,
thanks for the diagram.
this is how I pictured it but in order to cut it from the other side, as bob
put it, the cb is closer to the rail and the collision or rub would come into
effect in the form of clockwise spin on the ob.
-cOOp
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You may have found it useful to believe that, but it definitely isn't what's happening. If you set up a careful experiment you can prove it to yourself (although you may not want to).

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

Click to expand...
Yikes, that's way more than I said you could spin (at least more than I intended to say). I couldn't spin the cue ball alone past that ball into the pocket without a masse. I was talking about the edge of a ball. Less than 1/4 inch, way less than 2 & 1/4 inches.
 
coopdeville said:
pj,
thanks for the diagram.
this is how I pictured it but in order to cut it from the other side, as bob
put it, the cb is closer to the rail and the collision or rub would come into
effect in the form of clockwise spin on the ob.
-cOOp
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's the same (clockwise) spin for the straight-on shot I show. I showed the spin when I set up the Wei diagram, but it didn't transfer with my post.

pj
chgo
 
arsenius said:
Yikes, that's way more than I said you could spin (at least more than I intended to say). I couldn't spin the cue ball alone past that ball into the pocket without a masse. I was talking about the edge of a ball. Less than 1/4 inch, way less than 2 & 1/4 inches.
Click to expand...
Look at the other pages of the diagram.

pj
chgo
 
coopdeville said:
... Can you post a link for us?

I'd also like to see what spin you have to use to make that one pocket
bank shot. A diagram would be very helpful.
...
Click to expand...
This is all explained with diagrams in two recent issues of Billiards Digest. I am behind in putting my columns on-line, so you will have to track down the issue of the magazine. I also actually measured the angle change due to transferred side and it turned out to be about 5 degrees for a ball that had travelled 6 diamonds to the end cushion. 5 degrees is huge on long bank shots.

Read the articles. I don't have the issues listed, but since the articles were written in February and March of this year, they were probably printed in the April and May issues.

As for which spin, it is exactly what you would expect according to the discussion so far: left spin on the cue ball causes a small but significant amount of right spin on the object ball when you strike the object ball full or nearly full from either side. It really does happen, can be easily demonstrated, and is important in play if you are trying to make bank shots. That some people still deny that it happens makes me wonder about their sanity (or reading ability).
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Or try it this way:

CueTable Help



pj
chgo
Click to expand...
I have a standing offer of $200 to anyone who can show me how to make the first object ball (the 3 ball in the diagram) curve around the blocker (the 2 ball in the diagram) to make it in the corner pocket. This offer has been out there since June 1992 and no one has claimed the prize yet. Here is the original article: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1992-06.pdf

Here is a follow-up: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2003-07.pdf

Some restrictions: no tricks -- the table has to be flat, the balls round and not off-center, no chalking the cue ball or object ball, no jumping over the blocker -- it has to be a curve. The shot has to be legal in normal play.

The best I was ever able to do in at least an hour of trying is to hit about a quarter-inch of the far ball (the 4 in the above diagram).
 
This video is all you need to see in order to believe the CB can impart spin on the OB.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVA-82.htm


The above post is very clear proof (keep in mind that it is shown in super, super, super SLOW motion) that english transfers. The cue ball rolls forward, as seen by the red dot, and the object ball leaves w/ small ammount of back spin. With that being true (and it is) any english applied to the cue ball will result in opposite english applied/transferred to the object ball which results in throw!
 
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missing

Utah said:
This video is all you need to see in order to believe the CB can impart spin on the OB.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVA-82.htm


The above post is very clear proof (keep in mind that it is shown in super, super, super SLOW motion) that english transfers. The cue ball rolls forward, as seen by the red dot, and the object ball leaves w/ small ammount of back spin. With that being true (and it is) any english applied to the cue ball will result in opposite english applied/transferred to the object ball which results in throw!
Click to expand...

bad link utah
 
Utah said:
... With that being true (and it is) any english applied to the cue ball will result in opposite english applied/transferred to the object ball which results in throw!
Click to expand...
I don't know if this is what you meant, but some believe that it's the spin imparted to the object ball that subsequently causes throw; that throw happens after the collision. This is not quite right, although spin and throw are intimately connected. They are both caused by friction and develop at the same time during impact.

One practical consequence of knowing this is that you won't be tempted to try to make the object ball curve around another ball.

Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Is this for the same reason that collision induced throw is greater at lower speeds?
Click to expand...
Yes, it is. But you don't get even more throw/spin with a smaller offset because when the relative surface speed (rubbing speed) is too small, the balls end up rolling across each other prematurely. Max throw/spin occurs when rolling commences at the very end of impact (ie, you have the least amount of surface speed that still results in rubbing throughout.) In this situation, the coefficient of friction is as large as it can be (without having rolling take place too soon).

Jim
 
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I guess I wasn't thinking when I wrote my post, I didn't mean to say the spin can't be held over a long distance, was just meaning to point out that without much speed, if a ball gets the chance to start natural roll, the spin has died off. But with speed, yeah, spin can last all the way across the table.

Useful spin on a third ball seems impossible except for some very rare contrived situation. What I mean is, you can put outside spin on the CB to make the OB bank wider, or to throw an OB that you otherwise can't cut enough. But you can't hit a CB so it's spinning clockwise, hoping it makes a 2nd ball spin counterclockwise, and hoping that ball in turn makes a 3rd ball spin clockwise and therefore bank differently off a rail, or get thrown an appreciable amount into a pocket when it normally can't be cut enough.
 
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