Transition from push-out 9-ball to BIH

[Andrew Manning]

It's been discussed ad nauseum how 9-ball with the old "push out at any time" rules was a very different game than today's "hit the ball or give up BIH" game.

When did the transition take place? When was it that good players started playing with BIH rules? Was Earl ever a push-out player? Was Efren ever a push-out player? I'm pretty sure Buddy Hall was, based on hearing him give an interview about the old push-out rules.

-Andrew

 

[Patrick53212]

Very different

I think that this happened in the 80's if I am not mistaken. I have heard stories about before ball-in-hand. In my opinion, ball in hand has sped up the game but not necessarily made players better. I play in a league that still uses rules that are not BIH. You can use your opponent's balls and you can even push out during the game. It is a lot of fun and a much slower game. However, it REALLY helped overall game. Between these rules and BIH you quickly learn how ball movement is very critical and safety play is a must-have skillset.

 

[dabarbr]

I'm from the west coast and remember back in the early seventies that Cole Dickson brought in a player from what I believe was Florida. Back in that time all I knew was pushout nineball. I had never heard of one foul BIH.

We were trying to match up and thats when this guy from Florida, Randy something, mentioned one foul BIH. I was leery of that and declined the offer. We finally settled on pushout. I beat him a few sets fairly handily.

In that match I realized he didn't understand pushout very well. At that time I guessed pushout wasn't played much from where he came from. I was surprised at that because I had played Cole a number of times before and it was always pushout.

I felt that maybe from the Florida area it was mostly one foul BIH. So it's possible that from his area it was already an established game.

From that observation I would say that one foul BIH was already being played as far back as the early seventies. It really started to get more popular in the following years. I think that when whoever brought in the Texas Express that's when it really took off. But most big money games were still mostly pushout. Now the big money games are just extended races with the intention of making luck less important.

By the eighties that's all there was.

 

[randyg]

We put BIH (9-Ball) in the BCA Rule Book in the early 80's. 83-84, I will check my old rule books. Texas Express made it popular at that time.....SPF=randyg

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Was a pushout the same then as it is now?

In the days of "push out at any time" were the rules for what made a good pushout the same as now? Could you do anything you wanted with the cue ball short of pocketing it or jumping it off the table (or using an illegal stroke)?

pj
chgo

 

[BillPorter]

In the days of "push out at any time" were the rules for what made a good pushout the same as now? Could you do anything you wanted with the cue ball short of pocketing it or jumping it off the table (or using an illegal stroke)?

pj
chgo

You could do anything you wanted with the cue ball short of, as you said, jumping the table or shooting it into a pocket.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

We put BIH (9-Ball) in the BCA Rule Book in the early 80's. 83-84, I will check my old rule books. Texas Express made it popular at that time.....SPF=randyg

Thats what I always thought. It was texas express that made it popular.

 

[Pushout]

I first learned the ball in hand crap in the late '70s. I remember taking a lesson from Ray Martin on hiding the cue ball in 1978.

Edit: I started playing seriously in commercial rooms in '74 or '75 in the NE and pushout was played then. The bih rules came about several years later.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

And here I've been told that the Mid-West and East Coast players made up the one foul BIH so they could keep up with the West coast players in the late 70s and early 80s.

Didn't Richie Florence promote a huge tournament in Las Vegas the early 80s using Texas Express rules so he could get the Mid West and East Coast players to come?

 

[Black-Balled]

I can say pushout was played in the mid-atlantic in the late 8s/early 90s.

 

[Pushout]

I think that this happened in the 80's if I am not mistaken. I have heard stories about before ball-in-hand. In my opinion, ball in hand has sped up the game but not necessarily made players better. I play in a league that still uses rules that are not BIH. You can use your opponent's balls and you can even push out during the game.

I take it that you are not talking 9 ball here, there are no opponent's balls in 9 ball.

 

[pooljunkie4ever]

Push out will determine who the better player is. Without a doubt this rule really affected the game for the worse IMO. When I started playing, all that was played was push-out. With push-out you have better know how to bank or you would lose.

 

[Pushout]

Push out will determine who the better player is. Without a doubt this rule really affected the game for the worse IMO. When I started playing, all that was played was push-out. With push-out you have better know how to bank or you would lose.

It often involved knowing you opponent's strengths and weaknesses, such as, could he make a long cut, a long straight in, kisses, etc. It might determine the more knowledgeable player, not necessarily the stronger one.

 

[dabarbr]

I take it that you are not talking 9 ball here, there are no opponent's balls in 9 ball.

I remember back in the early seventies that in some places we played pushout eight ball. If you didn't know the strategy, you couldn't win. Imagine pushing out to make your ball and leave nothing for your opponent. I think this faded away because it was too complicated and with a huge advantage to the player that knew how to play it.

Maybe it's still being played today. Anybody?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In the days of "push out at any time" were the rules for what made a good pushout the same as now? Could you do anything you wanted with the cue ball short of pocketing it or jumping it off the table (or using an illegal stroke)?

pj
chgo

BillPorter:
You could do anything you wanted with the cue ball short of, as you said, jumping the table or shooting it into a pocket.

Thanks, Bill. Another question: was it allowed to push out from a pushout, or did you have to shoot or give it back?

pj
chgo

 

[dabarbr]

Thanks, Bill. Another question: was it allowed to push out from a pushout, or did you have to shoot or give it back?

pj
chgo

Yes that was allowed and it was called pushout with two fouls by the same man. If one pushed and the other didn't like it but didn't want to give it back he re-pushed but now someone had to shoot at it. It was not very popular. Made the game too slow. The other pushout that was mostly played was just like we do today after the break but could be done on any ball.

 

[Pushout]

Yes that was allowed and it was called pushout with two fouls by the same man. If one pushed and the other didn't like it but didn't want to give it back he re-pushed but now someone had to shoot at it. It was not very popular. Made the game too slow. The other pushout that was mostly played was just like we do today after the break but could be done on any ball.

We always played any two fouls in a row. I know it was played by the same man in some places, but we never played that way. If player A pushed, player B had the option. Repush would have been considered a foul, actually, the second foul, which resulted in ball in hand for the incoming player.

 

[jay helfert]

We put BIH (9-Ball) in the BCA Rule Book in the early 80's. 83-84, I will check my old rule books. Texas Express made it popular at that time.....SPF=randyg

Correct Randy. And then Richie decided to use it at the Caesars Tahoe tourney in 1983. I was his TD and fought him all the way. I couldn't conceive of 9-Ball where balls stayed down after a foul, AND the player got BIH anywhere and not behind the line. It just made no sense to me. But Richie liked it because it sped up the game, which was good for television. And we were on ESPN that year for the first time.

In the end we went with Richie's decision and thanks to him and the Texas Express guys (John Mac, Randy G. and Robin A.), the game of 9-Ball was transformed to what we have today. In the old days a Race To Eleven might easily take two hours or more. With the new rules, less than an hour and a half is average. It's true that with the old rules, the better players had even more of an advantage. But I've come to realize that no matter what the rules are and how long the races are, the best players get there in the end.

Case in point, last week in the Rum Runner tourney in Vegas it was Race To Six on a bar table, winner breaks. The two highest bids in the Calcutta (by far) were for SVB and Darren A. Guess what, they finished first and second.