"Transporting" Ivory

mikemosconi

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, so I have read many comments on "shipping" ivory and all the risks involved. Now my question is: anyone hear or read any issues with airline travel involving personal cues that have ivory components. I am talking about airline travel within the U.S.- checked baggage. To my knowledge, the TSA is not a customs arm of the govt. - but are they "enforcing", or do they have the authority to "enforce" customs laws within the U.S. and possibly seize our cues inside our checked bags if they suspect ivory components? I suspect not, since the cues are theoretically not being transported across state lines via checked baggage for commerce purposes, but rather as personal property.
So just wondering if anyone has heard of this being an issue with checked airline baggage. I do sometimes check a large bag with a cue inside it's case; though I have not checked any of my higher end cues that contain ivory.
 
My friend is a baggage handler at a big airport and you should see the nice collection of cues and cases he has acquired. Says he has pretty close to nothing in them.
 
mikemosconi said:
OK, so I have read many comments on "shipping" ivory and all the risks involved. Now my question is: anyone hear or read any issues with airline travel involving personal cues that have ivory components. I am talking about airline travel within the U.S.- checked baggage. To my knowledge, the TSA is not a customs arm of the govt. - but are they "enforcing", or do they have the authority to "enforce" customs laws within the U.S. and possibly seize our cues inside our checked bags if they suspect ivory components? I suspect not, since the cues are theoretically not being transported across state lines via checked baggage for commerce purposes, but rather as personal property.
So just wondering if anyone has heard of this being an issue with checked airline baggage. I do sometimes check a large bag with a cue inside it's case; though I have not checked any of my higher end cues that contain ivory.
Click to expand...
Why risk it? Take some other cue.
 
mikemosconi said:
OK, so I have read many comments on "shipping" ivory and all the risks involved. Now my question is: anyone hear or read any issues with airline travel involving personal cues that have ivory components. I am talking about airline travel within the U.S.- checked baggage. To my knowledge, the TSA is not a customs arm of the govt. - but are they "enforcing", or do they have the authority to "enforce" customs laws within the U.S. and possibly seize our cues inside our checked bags if they suspect ivory components? I suspect not, since the cues are theoretically not being transported across state lines via checked baggage for commerce purposes, but rather as personal property.
So just wondering if anyone has heard of this being an issue with checked airline baggage. I do sometimes check a large bag with a cue inside it's case; though I have not checked any of my higher end cues that contain ivory.
Click to expand...

High end ivory cues are best transported by car. As stated above, funny things can happen when shipping expensive cues and allowing them to be handled by other people (by plane or mail). Been there, done that!
 
Yes agree, that's why I have a couple of lower end cues that I use for airline travel. I was just curious as to LEGAL confiscation of cues based upon ivory contents by the TSA as opposed to pure theft of cues as someone in this thread suggested his friend participates in as an airline employee.
Many high end credit cards provide $1,000+ in stolen or lost baggage insurance- if you can prove the contents- but I doubt they would cover "Legally Seized" luggage contents- seized due to a violation of ivory transport rules might be an example of where a credit card company would deny a claim- so I just do not know if TSA can act upon the ivory transport rules- THAT is my question.
I can think of examples where I might prefer to take one of my higher end cues on a plane trip with me- but as some of you mention- I am not willing to risk that either!
 
I doubt it would be TSA...CBP, yes, and they only look when traveling to/from the U.S. I fly with my cues all the time (and yes, they have the "good stuff" in them) and have NEVER had an issue. And they've inspected the luggage a few times (leaving a love note each time). I've also flown international with them many times (although not since 2013) and never had any trouble with customs, either. They've got bigger fish to fry. I've heard of guys having hot wire stuck in the ivory to prove/test it (ivory burns, plastic melts), but never met anyone that's really happened to. The only people I've ever heard of getting busted were either moving huge numbers of cues for sale abroad, or shipping them or their unverified CITES ivory over seas.
 
woods can be equally risky

West Point 1987 said:
I doubt it would be TSA...CBP, yes, and they only look when traveling to/from the U.S. I fly with my cues all the time (and yes, they have the "good stuff" in them) and have NEVER had an issue. And they've inspected the luggage a few times (leaving a love note each time). I've also flown international with them many times (although not since 2013) and never had any trouble with customs, either. They've got bigger fish to fry. I've heard of guys having hot wire stuck in the ivory to prove/test it (ivory burns, plastic melts), but never met anyone that's really happened to. The only people I've ever heard of getting busted were either moving huge numbers of cues for sale abroad, or shipping them or their unverified CITES ivory over seas.
Click to expand...


While we only see something once in awhile, woods carry as much risk as ivory. Someone that knew the cue would be doing a bunch of traveling between states and countries would be wise to get a complete description of everything in the cue. This probably isn't possible buying used.

Hu
 
Hu makes an excellent point. Just research Gibson Guitar to see what your jackbooted thugs are up to. And Gibson had the paperwork for every square foot of impounded wood.

It will make you want to fly only with maple into maple cues.
 
I dont think you are breaking any laws carrying your personal playing cue with ivory anywhere inside the usa. It is when you intend to sell that you might be breaking laws. But over zealous employees who misuderstand the laws might take your cues anyvway.
 
Buzzard II said:
Hu makes an excellent point. Just research Gibson Guitar to see what your jackbooted thugs are up to. And Gibson had the paperwork for every square foot of impounded wood.

It will make you want to fly only with maple into maple cues.
Click to expand...

Totally an Obama revenge thing!!
 
mikemosconi said:
OK, so I have read many comments on "shipping" ivory and all the risks involved. Now my question is: anyone hear or read any issues with airline travel involving personal cues that have ivory components. I am talking about airline travel within the U.S.- checked baggage. To my knowledge, the TSA is not a customs arm of the govt. - but are they "enforcing", or do they have the authority to "enforce" customs laws within the U.S. and possibly seize our cues inside our checked bags if they suspect ivory components? I suspect not, since the cues are theoretically not being transported across state lines via checked baggage for commerce purposes, but rather as personal property.
So just wondering if anyone has heard of this being an issue with checked airline baggage. I do sometimes check a large bag with a cue inside it's case; though I have not checked any of my higher end cues that contain ivory.
Click to expand...

Didn't read any posts. You might contact a high end cuemaker and ask.
 
Atlas333, yes it was but I figured the subject might be kicked to NPR. Never the less you are right.
 
mikemosconi said:
Yes agree, that's why I have a couple of lower end cues that I use for airline travel. I was just curious as to LEGAL confiscation of cues based upon ivory contents by the TSA as opposed to pure theft of cues as someone in this thread suggested his friend participates in as an airline employee.
Many high end credit cards provide $1,000+ in stolen or lost baggage insurance- if you can prove the contents- but I doubt they would cover "Legally Seized" luggage contents- seized due to a violation of ivory transport rules might be an example of where a credit card company would deny a claim- so I just do not know if TSA can act upon the ivory transport rules- THAT is my question.
I can think of examples where I might prefer to take one of my higher end cues on a plane trip with me- but as some of you mention- I am not willing to risk that either!
Click to expand...

Even if the credit card company does reimburse for the cue, anybody that spent that kind of money on a cue that likely cannot be replaced did so with the thinking that the cue was worth more to them than the money.
 
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I'd cry if my cue was stolen. That said, I've often thought of SVB...nobody would bother to steal a cuetec, right? If somebody is dumb enough to steal it, it sure wouldn't bring the thief much loot. Yet here he is, playing at a world level with one.

Having valuable stuff is always a risk. Only you can decide it the risk is worth the reward. Once the value of a car I once had skyrocketed because it became a ought after collectable, I sold it to a friend at what was very much a friend's price. The paranioa I felt every time it left the garage removed most of the driving pleasure. Kind of ironic...the friend later emailed how horrible the paranoia was.

Be careful what you wish for...
 
The U.S. Constitution Protects You Against Illegal Seizure.

Folks,

The United States Constitution specifically prohibits the passage or enactment of ex post facto laws.
Clause 3, Article 1, Section 9 prohibits Congress from enacting any form of ex post facto legislation.
The states are prohibited from enacting ex post facto facto laws under Clause 1, Section 1, Article 10.

Generally the prohibition of ex post facto laws has mutually been applied to both civil & criminal matters.
Recently, the Adam Walsh Child Protection Act of 2006 became an exception to ex post facto enactment.
Regardless, the federal ivory ban & every state enacted ivory restriction is exclusively on a de facto basis.

So what does that mean? This is as straightforward as any answer can be. It is not illegal now or ever to
own or possess ivory of any type within the U.S. borders. However, it is illegal to sell or buy ivory as has
been specifically recited under the federal law. Ownership and transportation are different than buying and
selling. If you take the goods out of the USA, it is subject to challenge since your intention might be to sell
it or deliver it for a illegal sale already made. You will need to bring the item back with you upon re-entry to
the USA. You can’t leave it behind or you can be accused of selling it. You can say it was stolen or lost but
you are in for some expenses and headaches proving you’re innocent. The only safe way to protect your cues
during international travel is to have a CITES certificate but none have ever been issued for a pool cue.

You may be able to show proof of ownership of the cue but the ivory can be challenged as being illegal. Since
1978 ivory imports and exports have been strictly regulated. Pre-ban ivory is legal but ivory that is newer,
well, good luck on that one. So how is the age of the ivory determined? They drill & take core samples to age it.
So basically your cue can be turned into Swiss Cheese and there isn’t a thing you can do about it either. When
you pass through US Customs, you are at the mercy of the Agents & their understanding of the laws. And you
aren’t going to get them to change their decision by debating the the point with them so you are out of luck.

So the real headaches are essentially associated with International travel. Domestic travel has zero restrictions
within the contiguous United States and direct flights to Alaska & also Hawaii. If you travel through Canada on
the way to Alaska, you likely will be challenged since it’s a International crossing. But no bones about it, I can
take my cues anywhere in the USA and the cues cannot be legally confiscated by any agency or authority
state, city, county or federal. All the ivory laws are enacted de facto & cannot be retroactively applied (ex post facto).
 
Bavafongoul said:
Folks,

The United States Constitution specifically prohibits the passage or enactment of ex post facto laws.
Clause 3, Article 1, Section 9 prohibits Congress from enacting any form of ex post facto legislation.
The states are prohibited from enacting ex post facto facto laws under Clause 1, Section 1, Article 10.

Generally the prohibition of ex post facto laws has mutually been applied to both civil & criminal matters.
Recently, the Adam Walsh Child Protection Act of 2006 became an exception to ex post facto enactment.
Regardless, the federal ivory ban & every state enacted ivory restriction is exclusively on a de facto basis.

So what does that mean? This is as straightforward as any answer can be. It is not illegal now or ever to
own or possess ivory of any type within the U.S. borders. However, it is illegal to sell or buy ivory as has
been specifically recited under the federal law. Ownership and transportation are different than buying and
selling. If you take the goods out of the USA, it is subject to challenge since your intention might be to sell
it or deliver it for a illegal sale already made. You will need to bring the item back with you upon re-entry to
the USA. You can’t leave it behind or you can be accused of selling it. You can say it was stolen or lost but
you are in for some expenses and headaches proving you’re innocent. The only safe way to protect your cues
during international travel is to have a CITES certificate but none have ever been issued for a pool cue.

You may be able to show proof of ownership of the cue but the ivory can be challenged as being illegal. Since
1978 ivory imports and exports have been strictly regulated. Pre-ban ivory is legal but ivory that is newer,
well, good luck on that one. So how is the age of the ivory determined? They drill & take core samples to age it.
So basically your cue can be turned into Swiss Cheese and there isn’t a thing you can do about it either. When
you pass through US Customs, you are at the mercy of the Agents & their understanding of the laws. And you
aren’t going to get them to change their decision by debating the the point with them so you are out of luck.

So the real headaches are essentially associated with International travel. Domestic travel has zero restrictions
within the contiguous United States and direct flights to Alaska & also Hawaii. If you travel through Canada on
the way to Alaska, you likely will be challenged since it’s a International crossing. But no bones about it, I can
take my cues anywhere in the USA and the cues cannot be legally confiscated by any agency or authority
state, city, county or federal. All the ivory laws are enacted de facto & cannot be retroactively applied (ex post facto).
Click to expand...


Well, all I can tell you is that I’ve flown all over the country with cues that have as little ivory as a ferrule to 8-point Ginas and never had a problem.

I’ve also shipped cues for repairs and whatnot, so don’t let all the fear mongers make you believe the worst.

Lou Figueroa
 
As stated above, traveling with a cue that has ivory is legal, as long as you’re not going out of the country. Other than the possibility of your cue getting broken, I’d be most worried about it spending the trip in freezing temperatures. You can’t carry it onboard AFAIK.
 
HQueen said:
As stated above, traveling with a cue that has ivory is legal, as long as you’re not going out of the country. Other than the possibility of your cue getting broken, I’d be most worried about it spending the trip in freezing temperatures. You can’t carry it onboard AFAIK.
Click to expand...


If you’re shipping a cue, bite the bullet and do it overnight FedEx or UPS.

Lou Figueroa
no woes
 
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