Trouble shooting moori tip install

Monk Slayer

Monk Slayer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I love coming here and reading these forums, I've learned quite a bit about making cues. I apologize if this has been already discussed, internet here in Afghanistan is really slow. :grin: Warning! Wall of text! lol

So, I'm not new installing tips on cues, been doing it for 15 yrs or so, off an on. I have the big shaver, and I feel I do decent enough of a job that it would be difficult to discern the difference between a lathe job(lathe job is always better) and my work. A customer asks me to put on a moori medium that he provided onto a predator shaft. Ok, no problem. I've done a few of the layered tips with no problems. I say it that way, since having just recently started playing pool again, I hadn't seen much of the layered tips. So, I clean up the shaft, ferrule, and sand the ferrule flat with the cue top sander that I have. I then sand the gluing side of the tip to rough it up some. Being very careful not to touch either face of the tip or ferule. Using tiger brand CA, I apply glue to the tip side only. I've done it that way many times with no problems, lot less mess of glue to clean up afterward. Applied it, set it, pressed it and waited 20-30 minutes. Standard waiting time I think, never had an issue before like this. Placed it into the big shaver, started to take a bit off, and the tip pops off. So, thinking to my self, WTH, never had this happen before. I take a look at the ferrule, glue coverage looks good, however tip seems a bit dry in the center, like it soaked up some of the glue. Ok, np, let's try again. Sand the ferrule just enough to remove the glue, sand the tip flat again, apply glue to both tip and ferrule, set it on the ferrule, swirl it for a split second to ensure coverage, center it, press it, and let set for bout and hour. Same thing again, pops off in the big shaver. Crud! In each case, the tip popped off fairly clean, and I still have the other side which I can still use. So I figured before I really mess up a $15 dollar tip and have to order one and wait a week or more for it to arrive here in Afghanistan, I ought to come here and see what I'm missing. Now, mind you, I have installed 5-6 different types of layered tips, three of them on my cues and the others for buddies of mine with no problems. I did notice the ferrule material seemed different that what I've seen before and might have influenced what happened. I'm OCD when it comes to installing tips, I like to get it done right the first time, and make it look really good. I also guarantee my work as well, as any good cue repairer should, imo.

Thanks for taking the time to read my wall of text, I felt it was necessary to explain what I'm doing in case I'm missing something. Cheers!

Charles Snyder
 
Glue or Preperation?

Hi,

Use Lock Tite Super Glue Gel. You can be trimming the tip in one minute. When you put the glue on the tip and apply it to the ferrule, rotate the shaft before you let it rest under pressure.

I don't know much about Tiger glue but you must make sure that the face on the ferrule is machined perfectly flat and the tip is lapped on a sanding board before gluing. Without two flat faces you are going to lose tips no matter what glue you use.

Good Luck

Rick G
 
Dick Neighbors once posted he puts the glue on the ferrule and then licks the back of the tip for layered tips. I tried this and have not had one come off since while shaping it. Had many problems with Moori's before that.
 
I have had 2 tips pop in the manner that you mentioned, one was caused by an aging bottle of CA, one was from a funky ferrule material that did not seem to glue well with CA. Changing the bottle of Ca and the ferrule solved both problems. Although I have not tried it, I have heard of placing CA on the sanded tip, letting it dry and resanding, then using the CA as usual. Letting the CA dry on the tip is basically using it as a sealer. One other thought, I believe CA has a slight activation by moisture, could your Afghanistan humidity be interfering with the bond? If so, a slight moistening of the glue face of the tip might help. These are just my thoughts, hope they help.

Alan
 
Monk Slayer said:
I love coming here and reading these forums, I've learned quite a bit about making cues. I apologize if this has been already discussed, internet here in Afghanistan is really slow. :grin: Warning! Wall of text! lol

So, I'm not new installing tips on cues, been doing it for 15 yrs or so, off an on. I have the big shaver, and I feel I do decent enough of a job that it would be difficult to discern the difference between a lathe job(lathe job is always better) and my work. A customer asks me to put on a moori medium that he provided onto a predator shaft. Ok, no problem. I've done a few of the layered tips with no problems. I say it that way, since having just recently started playing pool again, I hadn't seen much of the layered tips. So, I clean up the shaft, ferrule, and sand the ferrule flat with the cue top sander that I have. I then sand the gluing side of the tip to rough it up some. Being very careful not to touch either face of the tip or ferule. Using tiger brand CA, I apply glue to the tip side only. I've done it that way many times with no problems, lot less mess of glue to clean up afterward. Applied it, set it, pressed it and waited 20-30 minutes. Standard waiting time I think, never had an issue before like this. Placed it into the big shaver, started to take a bit off, and the tip pops off. So, thinking to my self, WTH, never had this happen before. I take a look at the ferrule, glue coverage looks good, however tip seems a bit dry in the center, like it soaked up some of the glue. Ok, np, let's try again. Sand the ferrule just enough to remove the glue, sand the tip flat again, apply glue to both tip and ferrule, set it on the ferrule, swirl it for a split second to ensure coverage, center it, press it, and let set for bout and hour. Same thing again, pops off in the big shaver. Crud! In each case, the tip popped off fairly clean, and I still have the other side which I can still use. So I figured before I really mess up a $15 dollar tip and have to order one and wait a week or more for it to arrive here in Afghanistan, I ought to come here and see what I'm missing. Now, mind you, I have installed 5-6 different types of layered tips, three of them on my cues and the others for buddies of mine with no problems. I did notice the ferrule material seemed different that what I've seen before and might have influenced what happened. I'm OCD when it comes to installing tips, I like to get it done right the first time, and make it look really good. I also guarantee my work as well, as any good cue repairer should, imo.

Thanks for taking the time to read my wall of text, I felt it was necessary to explain what I'm doing in case I'm missing something. Cheers!

Charles Snyder
Click to expand...

absolutely, wet the tip! i lick it . make sure your super glue is fresh
 
Use any gel glue you want, but as said before 1st coat the sanded side with glue. Wipe it off after only a few seconds. Then resand SLIGHTLY. Don't sand through the sealed surface. Reglue & you should have no trouble. By the way I only lt my glue dry about a minute & a half...JER
 
I too had occasional trouble of Moori's falling off as I was trimming them on my lathe. I read the same tip as posted above: Applying a thin coat of the glue on the tip after sanding it, letting it dry for a few seconds, and then wiping off the excess. Then I sanded the tip again, this time with 320 sandpaper. This is just to flatten the glue, not to sand through the glue to the bare leather.

Once this is done, you can install the tip as normal. In my experience, this technique was only necessary on Moori tips. They absorb the glue very quickly if you don't do this.
 
I've been lucky enough to have the opportunity to install pretty much more layered tips than other. Had the same problem when I went cheap and bought SG gel from the local dollar store. Buy the good stuff from a store that is always busy and your problem will go away.

Sounds like your glue is just too old to me.
 
Moori on Predator

The moisture, and tip prep are key with this instal (as well as flat glue surfaces). Some lick the tip, and some just breathe on it (like you're trying to fog a window) just before glueing it up. I also sand the tip with 1000 grit. It looks more burnished than roughed up. I don't want the tip roughed up so much as I want it smooth, and flat. I think this keeps the tip from absorbing the cyno. I've never tried sealing it with glue. Sounds like a good idea. Good luck :smile:
 
Thanks for the tips! Pun intended lol. Forgot to mention, it was 4 am in the morning when I made my post lol, that I installed le pro on his shaft as temporary solution with no issues.

I also tried with two different brands/types of glues, a gel (tiger) and thin (krazy glue). It's possible the glue is old, however I did purchase the glue online several months ago. Tiger is supposed to be a premium CA glue. Frequently used in high vibration areas like model airplanes.

Both ferrule and tip were sanded flat, I since I don't have a lathe here, I'm stuck using tweetens top sander.

Haven't heard about licking the tip before lol. Sounds kinda weird, but if the MAN says it is, it must be so. LOL Anyone who builds crazy beautiful cues like Mr. Zinzola does must know what they're talking about. : P


I doubt humidity is an issue here, at 27 percent. http://www.google.com/search?q=weather+kandahar+afghanistan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Pre glueing the tip and lightly sanded was affectively done on the second try, since having already tried to glue it before, it had glue on it. Still popped off.

Well, I'll give the licking a try, and I read else where that *****ing the tip with a razor helps, creating tiny holes, increasing the surface area, I'll let you all know how it went later today, which would be morning time for most of you in the states. Worst case scenario, I end up paying out of pocket for a new tip and lose my pride lol! : P
 
Monk Slayer said:
Thanks for the tips! Pun intended lol. Forgot to mention, it was 4 am in the morning when I made my post lol, that I installed le pro on his shaft as temporary solution with no issues.

I also tried with two different brands/types of glues, a gel (tiger) and thin (krazy glue). It's possible the glue is old, however I did purchase the glue online several months ago. Tiger is supposed to be a premium CA glue. Frequently used in high vibration areas like model airplanes.

Both ferrule and tip were sanded flat, I since I don't have a lathe here, I'm stuck using tweetens top sander.

Haven't heard about licking the tip before lol. Sounds kinda weird, but if the MAN says it is, it must be so. LOL Anyone who builds crazy beautiful cues like Mr. Zinzola does must know what they're talking about. : P


I doubt humidity is an issue here, at 27 percent. http://www.google.com/search?q=weather+kandahar+afghanistan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Pre glueing the tip and lightly sanded was affectively done on the second try, since having already tried to glue it before, it had glue on it. Still popped off.

Well, I'll give the licking a try, and I read else where that *****ing the tip with a razor helps, creating tiny holes, increasing the surface area, I'll let you all know how it went later today, which would be morning time for most of you in the states. Worst case scenario, I end up paying out of pocket for a new tip and lose my pride lol! : P
Click to expand...

Being so dry is the problem. Super glues need moisture to set them off. Once opened, I throw bottles or tubes of super glues away after one month and open a fresh one. On most tips, breathing heavily on them creates enough moisture for the glue to set off. Moori's however must be extra dry or something as I need to wet the backs of them, usually by just licking them, to get enough moisture. I always put the glue on the ferrule and then the moisture on the back of the tip. I sand both the back of the tip and the ferrule with a rather coarse 120 sand paper so as to scruff both pieces. I put on many hundreds of tips a year and guarantee them for the life of the tip against coming off and I might have one or two a year at most come loose. I use loctite Ultra Gel for all tip installations. Once I press the tip onto the ferrule I hold in place for 15 or 20 seconds and then trim them to fit. It usually takes about 2 minutes to install, trim and shape a tip and be ready for play.

Dick
 
After reading these posts I guess i am pretty fortunate. I install a LOT of Mooris and have never had one pop off (as far as I know) I am in NC and it can be pretty humid here at times.(although not in the winter) I use the Tiger glue and just sand the tip a little with 220 to scuff it. I've never licked or moistened a tip or sealed with glue. Hmmm........ does make me wonder why I've never had this problem. I do use a Hightower lathe but not sure why that should matter. I know Delrin ferrules can be hard to glue to but don't see many of them. Maybe try taking tips out of the airtight bubble pack as soon as you get them? Keep us updated on what you figure out, ok?
 
Thanks for the help folks. Sorry for the delay, been a bit hectic here the past few days. Here's the update.

So, I got the tip installed with very little trouble. I didn't lick it, used my razor blade to make little holes. Mainly wanted to see if I really need the moisture or not. If tip came off after making the holes, then I need the moisture. Finished up the tip real nice. Best work I've done so far. About as perfect an install and anyone could do, imo. Gave it to the customer, he was happy and I made my bit of cash. Later that day, I was shootin pool with him, and he was showing me a few shots that he'd worked on, when the tip came off again! Everything but the last layer attached to the ferulle. He'd made two shots with the tip off and dented the edge. So, to keep a long story short, he's working with a Le Pro that I keep in stock. I've got two more Moori's on their way, and he'll get one for free if that's what he wants. Near as I can recall, I've only had 1 other tip fall off, but that was back in '95 or so. Oh, and when I went to trim off the last layer with a razor, I couldn't get most of it off, since the glue coverage was pretty good. I really hate to use his cue like this, since every time I install a tip on the ferulle, it gets shortened a little bit. Even doing my best to insure that I only take off as little as possible, it all adds up, devaluing the shaft and cue. Well, I gotta get going, I look up this thread again when I get the moori's in and try again. I'd like to sincerely thank everyone for chippin in and helpin out. Gotta love these forums! : )) Cheers!

Charles Snyder
 
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