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[Luxury]

Money ball on the break is one of the really exciting moments in pool. This is a game that has very few really exciting moments. Of course the top ten percent of players won't like it because it hurts their chances by adding more luck to the game. Pool has catered to the top 10 percent in too many ways when it is the 90 percent who pay the bills.

Bca league is mostly about playing a guy one game only so I see where they are coming from. But in Tap and APA it is a race so I think it's good. Speeding up the game is good too as those Tap league nights went WAYYYY too late Wayyyy too often in my experience.

 

[Scott Lee]

The stop shot is the most important shot in pool to master. It is the cornerstone to the understanding, and application, of all position play. The break shot only begins the game. There has been some research that shows the breaker often does not win (without a break and run...which is a small percentage).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

the break is probably the most important shot in pool.

 

[Ctwitty]

bashing

CT WITTY.....I am sorry and I did not know you have access to TAP's records but my records in the sales office shows about 20 new licensees in the past year or so and with that we gained in the area of 8,000 to 9,000 new members. TAP is growing and there is no slow down in sight. Of course we lose members, same as any other league, but we also are gaining members too.
And I never bashed any league on my original post. I simply stated that we had more members sign up then the other league in 2009. Again, I quoted IP magazine and their write up on this. Where is that bashing anyone? But I would like to ask you guys one question. When that league states they are the oldest or largest league are they bashing TAP with that statement? So if I state a fact saying that we are outgrowing them then where is the bash? You can't have it both ways here. If by what I saying is bashing them then what they say is bashing TAP. And honestly, there is no bashing going on at all. Only in your mind there is. So get over it, will you?

Also, since my last post, you can add Georgia and California to the list of people contacting me from this thread. So as you can see, there is more interest in TAP then you people may think.

Once again, play pool in whatever venue you choose but play and love the game. God bless.

A league stating that they are the largest and oldest when it is a fact is not bashing anyone it's JUST THE FACTS JACK! How are those vouchers working out for your teams. lol

 

[skiergirl55]

Well ma'am....I stand corrected, you did indeed purchase some instructional material......quite a bit of it in fact. So without trying to offend or insult I will ask if you have experienced information overload, or simply have not had the time to study and absorb so much material. If you have really studied the sections on safety and have a basic understanding of how and why they are used.....then why get upset or complain about another player using this elemental strategy.........Dan

I guess you had to be there. It wasn't strategy after a while. Anything done to excess is annoying. Here's what it was like to watch:

Break (nothing made)
safety
safety
safety
safety
safety
put one ball in (probably a mistake)
safety
safety
safety
slop one in
safety
safety
(oh come on.....)
safety
safety
safety
run 3 balls
safety
safety
miss your shot
miss your shot
miss your shot
run 2 balls
safety
safety
safety
run some balls
scratch on the 8

 

[conetip]

Here in NZ, 8 on the break is a loss of game.
The reason is sinking the 8 early in a game is a loss of game anyway.

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm,,,

OK, I try to not get into pissing contests. Sometimes I fail. Well, you called that one good!!

Coming from a Little League Coach, father of a High School Baseball Player, and general baseball fan and somewhat a student of the game....
Well if it is resumes we want... I played, LL, HS, college, semi-pro, former HS baseball coash, and still play and coach in the MSBL 45 and over leage. Also 1996 IL State Champion 12" slo-pitch softball team player/coach as well.

T-Ball: As many players as you have in the field to play defense, rather than 9.
Well, I guess you don't understand when someing is making a point. Tballers are 6 years old and the variation of the game is the basically the same.


Little League: 60 foot basepaths, 46 feet from pitching rubber to plate. (As opposed to 90 foot basepaths and 66.6 feet from the plate in middle school, and above)
What an expert !!. Baseball is just a little more complex, and more skilled the billiards. Do you really expect 6 year olds to throw pitches from 60 feet away. You my friend have not clue here. Or have a 8 year old understand the infield fly rule?? really ?? Most adults still don't know exactly when it is applied. The premise is if you get a pickup baseball game with adults anywhere in the country, it will be 3 strikes you are out !! A home run if it goes over fence in fair territory, etc. etc. pretty freaking simple aint it. Fly balls are outs if caught, you have to run to 1st base and then in order, etc. etc. The only arugument you will get in a game like that is was he out or safe !!! Tell me I'm wrong on that one!! There will not be arguments about "rules"

Junior League/Senior League: Different Pitch Count Rules, often the 10-run rule is in effect. (10-run rule applies at different levels until college and pro, your mileage may vary) Again, we can't have kids playing a game 65 - 2 can we. When you miss a point you really MISS a point.

College: Aluminum bats are still allowed, versus the professional leagues.
There is a cost factor involved here. And this has nothing to do with the rules of the game as this is an equipment issue. Man, I almost felt the wind on that swing and miss !!!
Minor League Professional Baseball: Being caught taking performance enhancing drugs results in a 50-game suspension on the first offense. This does not apply to major league baseball. Another swing and a miss,,, man, what does drug taking have to do with playing the game,, WOW I did feel it now......

OK, ChicagoRJ. Show me where I am wrong. Nowhere has there EVER been a definitive set of rules to play pool by. Ever here or World Standardized Rules... Yes, and BCA wrote a very good rule book many decades ago, I wont' say how many because you I might be off a decade or so...

BCA, or any other alphabet soup variation. There have ALWAYS been "house rules",

Exactly, anyone that has house rules is wrecking it as well. Yeah, and how does APA help be bring in more riduclous rules?? Other leagues chose idiotic rules because they don't want to play by "BCA" as they don't won't to promote or even use the name BCA. So them make some changes for some stupid reasons , and say, look, we have these really cool rules. I play BCA and APA, so the difference is pretty appearant to me when I play, and any good APA player likes BCA rules better. Showe me a APA 6 or 7 that likes APA rules, because there are not many out there.


But don't blame the APA for ruining pool for the masses. Most players I encounter in my APA League are observant enough to know the rules they are supposed to play by in the match they are in, be it APA or house rules.

NOt blaming them for current situation, but as the largest league operator in the counrty how are they helping teaching anyone to play by correct rules. Really, do beginners need to win with an 8 on break, or not get to chose solids or stripes after the break?? Another few hundred thousand people are learning pool with very bad rules. The point, which you so obviously missed, is if we can teach newbies, like little league players, that 3 strikes is an out. why can't an APA league player be trusted to learn that you don't win when you make the 8Ball, and you can play safe even when you knock one of your own balls in, AND you don't get to keep shooting when you don't pocket a ball in the intended target. I'm sure you will this point, but if a ball player hits a ball foul, should he run and say it is a "hit" in the league he plays in on the other side of town?

 

[KRJ]

hmmm

With all due respect (I can't believe I'm actually going to argue with RandyG, must get head examined) this thread was at one time about leagues.

8 on the break at a tournament, I can see your objection, and completely understand it. But for a weekly local league night? Making the 8 on the break adds a little spice to the night, mixes things up some, and generates some excitement for the winning side. And again, it's just league level.

I had it happen against me this week, and it didn't ruin my night. Made me want to get my turn it having it happen...

REally, an 8 on the break is more exciting than a break and run. When you break and run, you feel like you hit a grand slam. 8 on break, I usually apologize to the guy, and tell nice to be lucky once in awhile i guess. And when you break and run, the other guy knows he lost watching good pool, not some guy slopped in the 8.

 

[KRJ]

I would like to share this video to you. It should reflect how much strategies are involve in a safety battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCLcuLXlEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GqrF3xS2qA&feature=related

Although I agree with you somewhat, I have seen players play safe when they could've run out. I don't know if it's a lack of confidence and maybe just mind games but it happens.

I've seen it a lot, and trust me, more times than not it is a lack of confidence. When an APA 4 or 5 is playing a 6 or 7, and they start getting close, but they don't have the confidence in getting shape on the last three balls, and now decide to play safe for ball in hand. Most 6 or 7's would take the win right now... but i personally don't mind if they play that way, because i now know he is a little scared, and i'm coming back to the table when I thought there was no chance,, He might leave me tough, but 20% chance is better than none....

 

[justadub]

Sorry to set you off.

My argument was with the concept of "three strikes and you're out" as analgoy to all rules being the same in baseball at all levels. In your argument, YOU brought up t-ball, etc. I thought I might seize upon that since t-ball is for beginners, compared to the higher levels of play. APA is for beginners, too. Kind of the "t-ball" of organized pool.

Using your baseball analogy, the different levels of play have different rules, not simply the "three strikes and you are out" rule. There are no absolute hard and fast rules that apply to all levels of play. Many baseball rules do apply at all levels, but not all. Same with pool. It's pretty much a given in most levels of pool that I'm familiar with that you have to use the cue-ball to make your object ball. (This would be pools "3 strikes... Players alternate shots. But beyond that, there really aren't any established "rules of the game" that everyone must play by in every event. You might wish for that to be the case, but it simply isn't. And never has been.

I might agree with you that it would be better for the game if there were an accepted "standard rules" set to be used. That doesn't mean that I have to believe that pool is being "ruined" by Leagues or Tournaments adopting their own rules for play. It's not like these Leagues or Tournaments are suggesting "4 strikes", is it?

Of course, given how some umpires call games these days, maybe that's already in place in baseball? (Don't flame me, umps. It's an incredibly difficult and thankless job, one that I respect greatly.)

If and when there is a National Pool Organization, perhaps then we will have such standards for all pool games, at least ones run under their governance. Until then, folks had better be able to adjust to the rules of the league they are playing in. If they bother you that much, then obviously you shouldn't play in their events/leagues. They won't be the ruination of pool. No moreso now than has always been the case with various rule-sets over the years.

 

[markpatrick]

8 ball on the break

Erm, don't these rules also apply in the APA?

Besides, don't they also make the game of 8-ball more interesting and less predictable? AFAIK even the best breaker will only make the 8-ball on a small percentage of all his breaks. Among other things I think it encourages players to improve their breaking skills. A small element of chance means the minnow can win a game against a great white, and maybe, if all the balls roll well for him that night, even a match. But such a scenario will only happen rarely - as it should. (After playing about 40-45 league games, despite improving my break, I haven't made an 8-on-the-break once, and I rarely see others do it). Winning a game - no matter how - is good for lesser players' confidence and motivation. A shot at taking down a big gun is always an enticing prospect.

I for one will be willing to try TAP should it come to my area. What have a I got to lose? I bet it's better than most of the (usual) cynics here are painting it. And more competition with the locally established (and probably complacent) leagues can only be a good thing. More competition usually encourages better quality and better priced products.

I made the 8 ball on the break and got a patch from the APA. I think it is ridiculous that if you make the 8 ball on the break then you have to spot it and continue playing is a joke. IMO.

The APA sucks/is great/or mediocre depending on your league operator. The last APA league I played in no one in the division got a dime. The first place team or the team that won the playoffs.

If that league was in Illinois where there is a different LO, then we would have gotten $3 per point.

I see TAP cards all around the STL now. Wish them luck but a good business model for leagues is Missouri 8 ball and 9 ball leagues. Check their websites.

Serious players play in leagues to spend an evening with their friends more than anything else. Getting a few bucks back after 16 weeks is always nice too.

 

[APA Operator]

Jay, I gotta disagree on this.

I don't think any pool game should be won (or lost) on the breeak.

Sure, there is a level of skill - but a lot of luck is also involved in making the 8 on the break (or the 9 - or the 10).

Look at 10 ball as the rules evolve. Initially the 10 counted on the break, then did not count in the bottom pockets, and now pretty much does not count on the break.

Mark Griffin

I can support the position that the 8 on the break shouldn't be a win.

My reasoning has nothing to do with luck, though. As conetip pointed out, an early 8 isn't a win at any other point in the game. Calling it a win on the break seems arbitrary.

Along those lines of thought, though, in any game where the money ball is wild and doesn't have to be called, it seems perfectly reasonable to extend that to the break.

I don't agree with anyone who argues a topic like this on the basis of luck. There is plenty of luck in every game. Over the years, I have lost many more games to a lucky (or unlucky) roll than I have to an 8 on the break. Isn't just about ANY ball pocketed on an 8-Ball break luck? How different would the game be if you had to call ball and pocket on the break?

There is no set of rules for any billiards game that completely eliminates luck. Different sets of rules bring different amounts of luck into play, and that's fine with me. The better player doesn't always HAVE to win.

 

[Scott Lee]

APA Operator...Maybe 14.1. You have to call every shot, even off the break...and luck plays almost no part of straight pool (unless you consider landing correctly on your break shot luck...I don't). I could certainly see extending the "call every shot" rule to other games, like 8ball or 9ball...even on the break. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

How different would the game be if you had to call ball and pocket on the break?

There is no set of rules for any billiards game that completely eliminates luck. Different sets of rules bring different amounts of luck into play, and that's fine with me. The better player doesn't always HAVE to win.

 

[sfleinen]

APA Operator...Maybe 14.1. You have to call every shot, even off the break...and luck plays almost no part of straight pool (unless you consider landing correctly on your break shot luck...I don't). I could certainly see extending the "call every shot" rule to other games, like 8ball or 9ball...even on the break. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

Great post -- I agree wholeheartedly! Straight pool is one of my two most favorite games (gee, that's not obvious from my avatar's comment ) precisely because of the minimization of luck. Minimization is the key operative word by the way; luck will never be completely eliminated. I'd never been a fan of rotation games because of the "implied" Texas Express that seemed (to me) to be bolted to its hip. But I've become very warm to 10-ball these past couple of years, precisely because of the reasons that Mark Griffin outlined:

+ call shot for every shot
+ the growth of the game by ELIMINATING the 10-ball on the break (a non-called shot) as a "win"
+ two new additions by Grady Matthews / Tony Robles to the stock WPA rules to minimize luck:
1. called safeties (to eliminate the need to call crazy/impossible shots that really are disguised safeties)
2. a missed called shot results in option to the incoming player, to either accept the table as-is, or else give it back to the opponent (which minimizes lucky or moral safeties)
3. a called safety that pockets a ball results in option to the incoming player to accept the table as-is, or else give it back to the opponent (to minimize a player "getting rid of an easy ball" just for the purposes of turning the table over to his/her opponent because he/she doesn't want to deal with the subsequent ball)

What's interesting to see, is that rules like these are actually INCREASING in popularity, as evidenced by Super Billiards Expo's adoption of these rules for the recent Open/Pro 10-ball event (where it was pretty much WPA rules last year, and Texas Express rules in years prior).

Players (at certain levels, at least) are getting tired of luck, and want the skill back in the game. The fact that these rules are increasingly in popularity only begins to tell the story. Could a resurgence of 14.1 be not far off? [...rubs hands and salivates at the prospect...]

-Sean

 

[Scott Lee]

Sean...I remember many years ago, playing full rack rotation...call shot. That was a great game! I still practice rotation that way.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[realkingcobra]

Here's something for all of you to think about...take ALL the pool leagues on the planet....form them under one title called the "World Pool Leagues"....unifiy the rules...then break the world up into divisions...called other countries...and at the end of the season...call it a world championship....need an example of how to do this.....take a look at "LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL"...though the Minnesota Twins have won a world championship in major league baseball....did they beat the whole world to win that championship???????????....in "LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL"....the WHOLE world plays...and to win THAT world Title...to me, is more impressive than winning the world series of baseball.

THINK ABOUT IT.................

PS, I might also add....the "LITTLE LEAGUE WORLD CHAMPIONS"....DON"T get PAID to play!

Glen

 

[Pushout]

Scott:

Great post -- I agree wholeheartedly! Straight pool is one of my two most favorite games (gee, that's not obvious from my avatar's comment ) precisely because of the minimization of luck. Minimization is the key operative word by the way; luck will never be completely eliminated. I'd never been a fan of rotation games because of the "implied" Texas Express that seemed (to me) to be bolted to its hip. But I've become very warm to 10-ball these past couple of years, precisely because of the reasons that Mark Griffin outlined:

+ call shot for every shot
+ the growth of the game by ELIMINATING the 10-ball on the break (a non-called shot) as a "win"
+ two new additions by Grady Matthews / Tony Robles to the stock WPA rules to minimize luck:
1. called safeties (to eliminate the need to call crazy/impossible shots that really are disguised safeties)
2. a missed called shot results in option to the incoming player, to either accept the table as-is, or else give it back to the opponent (which minimizes lucky or moral safeties)
3. a called safety that pockets a ball results in option to the incoming player to accept the table as-is, or else give it back to the opponent (to minimize a player "getting rid of an easy ball" just for the purposes of turning the table over to his/her opponent because he/she doesn't want to deal with the subsequent ball)

What's interesting to see, is that rules like these are actually INCREASING in popularity, as evidenced by Super Billiards Expo's adoption of these rules for the recent Open/Pro 10-ball event (where it was pretty much WPA rules last year, and Texas Express rules in years prior).

Players (at certain levels, at least) are getting tired of luck, and want the skill back in the game. The fact that these rules are increasingly in popularity only begins to tell the story. Could a resurgence of 14.1 be not far off? [...rubs hands and salivates at the prospect...]

-Sean

Sean,
I haven't read the whole thread and am not going to but have you seen Paul Schofied's posts about the events he's run with different rules for the break and racking in 9 Ball?

 

[sfleinen]

Sean,
I haven't read the whole thread and am not going to but have you seen Paul Schofied's posts about the events he's run with different rules for the break and racking in 9 Ball?

Pushout:

Thanks for the tip, but I'm not sure I've seen his posts (I may have, but the topic of 9-ball, with me, just goes in one ear and out the other without a second thought). For me, any modifications to the game of 9-ball are just "patches" -- e.g. all these rule addendums related to breaking; "x" number of balls need to pass the head string, the balls racked with the 9-ball on the spot vs. head ball on the spot, must "break from the box," etc. The game of 9-ball, to me, is just broken and doesn't interest me. Call-shot 9-ball *might* be interesting, but let's be honest here -- that will *never* happen. Sorry if that offends any 9-ball fans.

Anyway, apologies to all if this side-tracked the thread for a bit. Back to our regularly-scheduled programming...

-Sean

 

[rvan]

I live in a big town and tap is good for the new people to the guy that wants to play for fun and get his stroke back. I have had some of the best times of my life playing tap, on 8, 9, and bar box tables.

Now, do i like the format!?
No!!

I think that the bca format is the best, race to 25, 5 man team, 1 guy playes 5 times per night.

I would like to see a race to 3 but time wise its hard.

My 2 cents .$

Thanks Rvan.
Here are some good friday pics.

 

[APA Operator]

APA Operator...Maybe 14.1. You have to call every shot, even off the break...and luck plays almost no part of straight pool (unless you consider landing correctly on your break shot luck...I don't). I could certainly see extending the "call every shot" rule to other games, like 8ball or 9ball...even on the break. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'm glad we agree. Straight pool and one pocket involve the least amount of luck. They don't eliminate it. All games have good/bad roll luck. In 14.1, if you make your called ball and also pocket another ball by accident, you get to keep the one you lucked in. In one pocket, you don't even have to call a ball, and you can score when your opponent is at the table.

But none of that was my point. Different variations of rules for the same game (call shot, call pocket, call ball, call nothing) bring different amounts of luck into the game, and that doesn't bother me a bit. In general, the better the player, the less they want luck involved, and in fact the less luck is involved. But what do most players say at the beginning of a match? "Good luck." And what is it they say when they win a match? "I got lucky." And when they lose? "He got lucky."

 

[Blackball75]

I could certainly see extending the "call every shot" rule to other games, like 8ball or 9ball...even on the break.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott, interesting idea. It would no doubt appeal to many pros, but I'm sure would put off many amateur players, who after all, make up the vast majority of pool players.

Besides, how do you call a ball on the break? Are you calling to state which one you're hitting first, or which ball you're aiming at actually pocketing?