Try This Shot Ten Times

av84fun said:
Not a flame at all. Some world championship pool has been played with all kinds of pool cues and shafts.

But I do disagree with you above statement. Your statement dismisses any benefits of L/D shafts and that is just as wrong as a suggestion that everyone must benefit from using them.

An L/D shaft reduces but does not eliminate a variable created when striking a CB off center. Reducing such variables is a fundamental advantage.

I am sure you would not go to a cue maker and say "Hey, my cue doesn't deflect the CB enough. Please make me one with more deflection."

I don't know what your speed is but will assume that you have reached a level of superiority without resorting to a L/D shaft...and I compliment you for that.

Others, with equal skill as you have achieved, prefer to obtain a reduction of the deflection variable and turn their attention to other factors.


There is no right or wrong and there is certainly no failure to concentrate on the technique required to master a traditional shaft...but rather a choice to avoid having to achieve that mastery.

To use an intended pun...it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.

Regards,
Jim
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I'm not saying low deflection shafts have no benefit... they do... but they're not making this shot for you. The difference between the worst shaft in the world and the best is a slight adjustment with BHE. People might say, "Well, you dont need BHE with a low deflection shaft."

My hypothesis is that technique gets you around the table better than shooting parallel, FHE, traditional (whatever you call it) english. I hope some other people will chime in and give me their thoughts on this... I'm really curious.

I guess my point is if you know what you're doing, you're making the shot either way... so why focus so hard on the shaft? It's like saying only brand X sand wedge gets me out of the sand. I tried the shot with a 15 year old junk cue (prob $80 at the time) and a new laminated shaft / custom cue (about $1800) and my aim/technique adjustments were minimal.
 
0/10

lol. My table is really slow, with hard follow and inside I could only get it to the opposite headstring, but not quite in the target zone. I bet I could get it all the way around with a table that has 760 or 860 on it. My table is like playing croquet.
 
Wow Jude was hammering that shot in the video, I cant hammer it like that and make it, the short rail shot at the end of the video I can hammer. good stuff.
 
Fatboy said:
Wow Jude was hammering that shot in the video, I cant hammer it like that and make it, the short rail shot at the end of the video I can hammer. good stuff.
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Well, even though the vid is only a couple minutes, I was at the table for about 15 minutes total. I took a lot of swings at that shot. What's on youtube isn't the best or worst. I actually think I nailed it 5 or 6 times in a row at one point but I also had a few stretches where I missed a few in a row. It's a fun shot to do when you're smacking 'em around. I wouldn't be happy if I had to produce this shot when it mattered.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm not saying low deflection shafts have no benefit... they do... but they're not making this shot for you. The difference between the worst shaft in the world and the best is a slight adjustment with BHE. People might say, "Well, you dont need BHE with a low deflection shaft."

My hypothesis is that technique gets you around the table better than shooting parallel, FHE, traditional (whatever you call it) english. I hope some other people will chime in and give me their thoughts on this... I'm really curious.

I guess my point is if you know what you're doing, you're making the shot either way... so why focus so hard on the shaft? It's like saying only brand X sand wedge gets me out of the sand. I tried the shot with a 15 year old junk cue (prob $80 at the time) and a new laminated shaft / custom cue (about $1800) and my aim/technique adjustments were minimal.
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I would turn that question back on you. Why focus so hard on using BHE and squirt compensation when you can lessen the variable automatically with a L/D shaft?


And what laminated shaft brand did you use? They are not nearly all the same.

And what tip shape...dime or nickel? Makes a measurable difference (15% according to Predator which ships only dime radius tips).

And finally, it is your "if you know what you are doing" comment that I take issue with. It would be AT LEAST as correct to state that if you know what you are doing you would reduce the variable in the first place with an L/D shaft.

Regards,
Jim
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Well, even though the vid is only a couple minutes, I was at the table for about 15 minutes total. I took a lot of swings at that shot. What's on youtube isn't the best or worst. I actually think I nailed it 5 or 6 times in a row at one point but I also had a few stretches where I missed a few in a row. It's a fun shot to do when you're smacking 'em around. I wouldn't be happy if I had to produce this shot when it mattered.
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you have a powerful stroke, i am impressed. That shot is brutal. I have a straight stroke but I cant get the juice on the rock like you-even when I could play everyday I didnt have that power. Good for you. i'll take the 5 ;)
 
Fatboy said:
you have a powerful stroke, i am impressed. That shot is brutal. I have a straight stroke but I cant get the juice on the rock like you-even when I could play everyday I didnt have that power. Good for you. i'll take the 5 ;)
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Thanks, that's nice of you to say. It still feels kinda silly because frankly, I usually play on the simple side (at least, I try to).
 
av84fun said:
I would turn that question back on you. Why focus so hard on using BHE and squirt compensation when you can lessen the variable automatically with a L/D shaft?


And what laminated shaft brand did you use? They are not nearly all the same.

And what tip shape...dime or nickel? Makes a measurable difference (15% according to Predator which ships only dime radius tips).

And finally, it is your "if you know what you are doing" comment that I take issue with. It would be AT LEAST as correct to state that if you know what you are doing you would reduce the variable in the first place with an L/D shaft.

Regards,
Jim
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Oh my. It wasn't directed at you - it was a general comment. You misread about everything I said. I said some people would say, "why use bhe if you have a LD shaft"... and you followed up with that same question. My point was pivoting got me to the promised land way better than not pivoting - and was curious if other people found the same thing (shaft being a non-issue)... meaning, just try it with whatever you're using.

The old cue has a tip that's worn down to the very end and my good cue has a newer Kamui (is that how you spell it?). My tip is actually kinda flat -- way closer to nickel, with the tip flat (hopefully you know what I mean).

Jim, please don't quote me and retort - I'm not in this for a tit for tat... I was just looking for other people's opinions. Tit for tats take way too much energy for me. My personal opinion, which I don't feel like defending, is that if the tip holds chalk, the shaft is smooth, my "personal" adjustment for whatever the cue is, is fairly minimal. Meaning, if I hit a few balls to get the feel of the cue, I can make the shot pretty well over time.

Jude and JoeyA... what are your personal thoughts on this? I know you each can play. How crucial is the shaft to do this shot well? Even with a low deflection shaft, do you get there better by pivoting or not? Just curious. That's why I posted my original message - just to read feedback.
 
MOJOE said:
BHE=Back Hand English..
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thats what i thought, now my second dumb question....whats that?, i feel so dumb after playing all these years and I missed this term. perhaps I know what it is but have a different name for it.
 
Fatboy said:
thats what i thought, now my second dumb question....whats that?, i feel so dumb after playing all these years and I missed this term. perhaps I know what it is but have a different name for it.
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There are a number of different methods. I think the most popular is to setup on the shot as if you were going to make it with center ball. When you're locked-in, pivot your shooting hand as to impart english on the CB. Meaning, for the shot in question, move your shooting hand down and to the right, which moves your tip high and to the left.

There's a little more to it... pivot points on shafts, etc. Experiment with bridge lengths, speed of the stroke, etc. Over time, you'll have a good feel for it.
 
Fatboy said:
you have a powerful stroke, i am impressed. That shot is brutal. I have a straight stroke but I cant get the juice on the rock like you-even when I could play everyday I didnt have that power. Good for you. i'll take the 5 ;)
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Fatboy, I agree that Jude has a nice stroke but do you realize that the shot he is shooting on the video is NOT the shot that I detailed at the beginning of this thread?

The shot Jude is shooting is the one Earl Strickland was demonstrating a while back to another AZer.

The shot I was showing is far more difficult than the one Jude was shooting. The cue ball is either set on the spot or it is set one half diamond to the left of the spot. The object ball is 1 1/2 balls from the left edge of the rail.

If you already knew that, my bad..
JoeyA
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I gave bad info in my earlier post. OB is a little far away for the 7:30 move. If it were closer, it'd zip it around no prob. I was hitting 11:00 and getting around really consistently with BHE. I pretty much use BHE for every shot regardless, but I was curious to see the difference in "action" between pivoting and not.

From just playing around, I found using BHE made the ball and zipped the CB around far more efficiently. Does anyone think they do this shot better without pivoting? Just curious to hear opinions.

I know I'll get flamed off my keyboard for saying this, but I really don't think the shaft makes any difference at all. Low deflection or not. I think if you really believe that certain shafts will help you make this shot - you're not concentrating enough on the technique that gets you there.
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I am in 100% agreement that BHE nets more english (aka: zips the ball around)...I can't give you a scientific explanation...I can explain my logic at the table much easier....However...I may very will be just a confidence factor in the stroke...but even if that is so...it still does not change that I seemingly get much better results through BHE....some people will say hogwash...and that is ok...but from my own persoal experience...I get better english application through BHE.

Interestingly...The Earl shot...(the shot that Jude videoed ) has the CB much closer to the OB is ideal for a straight BHE application with no compensation...The newer longer shot described in the origonal post...I think is beyond the range of BHE...meaning...even though you apply the english via the BHE method you still need to adjust slightly to undercut the ball to compensate for the added defelection......Basically the delection path is along a V path from point of contact...as the shot gets longer the V path keeps widening...the ball is going to be struck with enough pace that the swerve or throw does not have enough effect to offset the deflection.(aka: squirt) or the CB...

However...even people that use a low deflection shaft on this shot will have to accomodate...I (personally) would rather accomodate for only a few shots rather than every shot.

Regarding the difference in shafts...I do think shafts make a difference. especially with this shot...I would imagine for anyone that if they were to jump from shaft to shaft, there would be a learning curve to what both makes the ball and gets them around the table.....This is not a shot you just pick up any cue off the wall and immediatly start firing the ball in.

If you know your cue well...and have hit that shot before...sure...you could probably go a stretch and then just pick up and hit the shot...
 
JoeyA said:
Fatboy, I agree that Jude has a nice stroke but do you realize that the shot he is shooting on the video is NOT the shot that I detailed at the beginning of this thread?

The shot Jude is shooting is the one Earl Strickland was demonstrating a while back to another AZer.

The shot I was showing is far more difficult than the one Jude was shooting. The cue ball is either set on the spot or it is set one half diamond to the left of the spot. The object ball is 1 1/2 balls from the left edge of the rail.

If you already knew that, my bad..
JoeyA
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Yeah, I don't like your shot, either. Anybody wanna challenge me to do stop shots 10 times in a row and I'm in!
 
JoeyA said:
Fatboy, I agree that Jude has a nice stroke but do you realize that the shot he is shooting on the video is NOT the shot that I detailed at the beginning of this thread?

The shot Jude is shooting is the one Earl Strickland was demonstrating a while back to another AZer.

The shot I was showing is far more difficult than the one Jude was shooting. The cue ball is either set on the spot or it is set one half diamond to the left of the spot. The object ball is 1 1/2 balls from the left edge of the rail.

If you already knew that, my bad..
JoeyA
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i knew that, but....i cant make either of them with any regularity, kinda like my spelling i do get lucky once in a while.:)
 
SpiderWebComm said:
There are a number of different methods. I think the most popular is to setup on the shot as if you were going to make it with center ball. When you're locked-in, pivot your shooting hand as to impart english on the CB. Meaning, for the shot in question, move your shooting hand down and to the right, which moves your tip high and to the left.

There's a little more to it... pivot points on shafts, etc. Experiment with bridge lengths, speed of the stroke, etc. Over time, you'll have a good feel for it.
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yeah I know about that, just didnt know the name. I dont use it often, thats something I have been planning on working on, I am familiar with it though, just never heard the name-some how after a zillion hours here I never picked up on the name. thanks buddy
 
Fatboy said:
thats what i thought, now my second dumb question....whats that?, i feel so dumb after playing all these years and I missed this term. perhaps I know what it is but have a different name for it.
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BHE is a method that In Theory is designed to accomodate or "offset" squirt or CB Deflection...however you refer to it.

I would suggest doing a search on BHE and you will get a ton of info on it.

One of the first things you should do is follow a method that I think Cornerman origonally posted regarding finding your cue's pivot point on the shaft.....(meaning how far back from the tip do you need to pivot)

In a nutshell...If you set up a dead straight in shot into the corner pocket not real long not real short...If you find your cues pivot point. you can set up for a stop shot, then pivot the cue for BHE and you will be able to make the OB and the CB will stop pretty much dead and spin like a top.

What you will find on that shot is that once you have determined the above pivot point....you will be able to set up for a sraight in shot...and as long as you keep your bridge firmly planted...it won't matter if your stroke is dead straight...the BHE atomatically accomodates for missing the precision center axis of the CB... (within reason)....It is (rumored) that this is how Earl applys BHE...through a "swoop" method during the actual stroke....(I of course can not confirm or deny)

The "keys" IMO are Knowing your cues pivot point and a firm stable bridge on the (pivot point)
 
Spidee:
My hypothesis is [BHE] gets you around the table better than shooting parallel, FHE, traditional (whatever you call it) english. I hope some other people will chime in and give me their thoughts on this... I'm really curious.
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BHE is just another way to angle your cue as you strike the cue ball ball in order to compensate for squirt. You do the same thing if you simply line up at the right angle in the first place (what you call "traditional english"). So BHE doesn't accomplish anything new or different from the "traditional" method (or any other method) - in particular, it can't give the cue ball any more or better spin.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
BHE is just another way to angle your cue as you strike the cue ball ball in order to compensate for squirt. You do the same thing if you simply line up at the right angle in the first place (what you call "traditional english"). So BHE doesn't accomplish anything new or different from the "traditional" method (or any other method) - in particular, it can't give the cue ball any more or better spin.

pj
chgo
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Pj-

I hear ya... but with BHE, you're technically striking across the face of the ball - not square into it, right? So, I'm not sure if it's only a method to compensate for squirt. I'm not saying for sure one over the other... I just know the way you come into the CB is totally different--- so wouldn't spin be affected as well?
 
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