Tuck and Roll

Joe T

Joe T

New member
As for as I know and am concerned, tuck and roll is done soley with the wrist. If a right handed player is applying right hand english to the cue ball using a pivoting stroke rather than a parallel stroke their wrist will be slightly curled in and up, this is called tuck. It can be done way ahead of the final stroke but is one of the toughest things I have to teach. A player must be able to pivot the tip over to the right hand side of the cue ball without changes their aim. When I'm teaching it, I can see when they changed their aim more towards the right but most of the time they CAN'T. It's very hard to get them to know when they changed their aim or not. I myself when shooting will either step into a shot with the pivot already on the shot or if it's a very critical shot I will first aim up the shot with center ball and when I'm sure I have the contact points matched up I will then start to curl my wrist in slightly which causes the tip to move over to the right slightly. I never do it on the final stroke, going center, center and then all of a sudden swing to the right. I feel accurate tip position is way to important to all of a sudden swoop across the cue ball and hope my timing was perfect.

When a right handed player is applying left hand english their wrist will be raised slightly outward to the right, away from their body. This is called rolling the wrist out. Once again the hardest thing to do is to find the proper pivoting distance for you and your stick and to learn when you have changed your aim over to the left.

I recommend that you shoot straight in shots diagonally across the pool table, Aim with center, then try to start tucking or rolling. Tucking will feel better, more natural. This is how I test sticks for deflection. I play with a predator "Z" shaft and aim the shot dead center pocket. pivot over, hit it with a medium firm stroke and can stop my rock leaving it there spinning like a top!

If you're applying right hand english and the object ball is missing the pocket to the left hand side, you are probably changing your aim over to the right while tucking. If you are missing the pocket to the right with the object ball you are probaly pivoting correctly(Congratulations) and your cue stick is causing the cue ball to squirt out to the left. In which case you should run out and get a "Z" shaft! Just kidding, well half kidding. You either get a low deflection cue stick or consciously learn how much deflection your cue stick causes.

And I think the reason people say they don't compensate for deflection while using backhand english is because (And this is a guess) I think they actually change their aim slightly when pivoting (say to the right) and then they do get the deflection (to the left) and it's like a cancelling effect but the deflection or squirt does happen, right Bob?

Another good shot to practice tuck and roll is 3 rails with inside. Place the object ball a half inch off the long rail about a 12-18 inches from the pocket, set the cue ball up for a 30-40 degree angle and start to use you pivoting method. If you're missing too full, you're changing you're aim in towards the ball. If you're over cutting, you're probably doing it correctly but the cue ball is deflecting out towards the rail.

Good luck, That's my take on tuck and roll.
Joe T
 
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Joe T said:
As for as I know and am concerned, tuck and roll is done soley with the wrist. If a right handed player is applying right hand english to the cue ball using a pivoting stroke rather than a parallel stroke their wrist will be slightly curled in and up, this is called tuck. It can be done way ahead of the final stroke but is one of the toughest things I have to teach. A player must be able to pivot the tip over to the right hand side of the cue ball without changes their aim. When I'm teaching it, I can see when they changed their aim more towards the right but most of the time they CAN'T. It's very hard to get them to know when they changed their aim or not. I myself when shooting will either step into a shot with the pivot already on the shot or if it's a very critical shot I will first aim up the shot with center ball and when I'm sure I have the contact points matched up I will then start to curl my wrist in slightly which causes the tip to move over to the right slightly. I never do it on the final stroke, going center, center and then all of a sudden swing to the right. I feel accurate tip position is way to important to all of a sudden swoop across the cue ball and hope my timing was perfect.

When a right handed player is applying left hand english their wrist will be raised slightly outward to the right, away from their body. This is called rolling the wrist out. Once again the hardest thing to do is to find the proper pivoting distance for you and your stick and to learn when you have changed your aim over to the left.

I recommend that you shoot straight in shots diagonally across the pool table, Aim with center, then try to start tucking or rolling. Tucking will feel better, more natural. This is how I test sticks for deflection. I play with a predator "Z" shaft and aim the shot dead center pocket. pivot over, hit it with a medium firm stroke and can stop my rock leaving it there spinning like a top!

If you're applying right hand english and the object ball is missing the pocket to the left hand side, you are probably changing your aim over to the right while tucking. If you are missing the pocket to the right with the object ball you are probaly pivoting correctly(Congratulations) and your cue stick is causing the cue ball to squirt out to the left. In which case you should run out and get a "Z" shaft! Just kidding, well half kidding. You either get a low deflection cue stick or consciously learn how much deflection your cue stick causes.

And I think the reason people say they don't compensate for deflection while using backhand english is because (And this is a guess) I think they actually change their aim slightly when pivoting (say to the right) and then they do get the deflection (to the left) and it's like a cancelling effect but the deflection or squirt does happen, right Bob?

Another good shot to practice tuck and roll is 3 rails with inside. Place the object ball a half inch off the long rail about a 12-18 inches from the pocket, set the cue ball up for a 30-40 degree angle and start to use you pivoting method. If you're missing too full, you're changing you're aim in towards the ball. If you're over cutting, you're probably doing it correctly but the cue ball is deflecting out towards the rail.

Good luck, That's my take on tuck and roll.
Joe T
Click to expand...


Goddamit Joe...I wanted Jewett to respond to this and explain it. He had no fucking clue!! NONE!! The wimpy little piss ant evaded my post like the plague and has NEVER NEVER EVER explained it in this fashion on any forum. All he ever advocates is parallel english, just like he did earlier. The only thing is...will anybody understand it and be able to pull it off? However, you did good with the explanation. I could have added a few things to it, but to hell with it. The teaching gurus will just steal it and say they've been teaching it this way for years, when they never taught anything of the kind. You are one swift dude and I have tremendous respect for you.
 
Joe T said:
As for as I know and am concerned, tuck and roll is done soley with the wrist. If a right handed player is applying right hand english to the cue ball using a pivoting stroke rather than a parallel stroke their wrist will be slightly curled in and up, this is called tuck. It can be done way ahead of the final stroke but is one of the toughest things I have to teach. A player must be able to pivot the tip over to the right hand side of the cue ball without changes their aim. When I'm teaching it, I can see when they changed their aim more towards the right but most of the time they CAN'T. It's very hard to get them to know when they changed their aim or not. I myself when shooting will either step into a shot with the pivot already on the shot or if it's a very critical shot I will first aim up the shot with center ball and when I'm sure I have the contact points matched up I will then start to curl my wrist in slightly which causes the tip to move over to the right slightly. I never do it on the final stroke, going center, center and then all of a sudden swing to the right. I feel accurate tip position is way to important to all of a sudden swoop across the cue ball and hope my timing was perfect.

When a right handed player is applying left hand english their wrist will be raised slightly outward to the right, away from their body. This is called rolling the wrist out. Once again the hardest thing to do is to find the proper pivoting distance for you and your stick and to learn when you have changed your aim over to the left.

I recommend that you shoot straight in shots diagonally across the pool table, Aim with center, then try to start tucking or rolling. Tucking will feel better, more natural. This is how I test sticks for deflection. I play with a predator "Z" shaft and aim the shot dead center pocket. pivot over, hit it with a medium firm stroke and can stop my rock leaving it there spinning like a top!

If you're applying right hand english and the object ball is missing the pocket to the left hand side, you are probably changing your aim over to the right while tucking. If you are missing the pocket to the right with the object ball you are probaly pivoting correctly(Congratulations) and your cue stick is causing the cue ball to squirt out to the left. In which case you should run out and get a "Z" shaft! Just kidding, well half kidding. You either get a low deflection cue stick or consciously learn how much deflection your cue stick causes.

And I think the reason people say they don't compensate for deflection while using backhand english is because (And this is a guess) I think they actually change their aim slightly when pivoting (say to the right) and then they do get the deflection (to the left) and it's like a cancelling effect but the deflection or squirt does happen, right Bob?

Another good shot to practice tuck and roll is 3 rails with inside. Place the object ball a half inch off the long rail about a 12-18 inches from the pocket, set the cue ball up for a 30-40 degree angle and start to use you pivoting method. If you're missing too full, you're changing you're aim in towards the ball. If you're over cutting, you're probably doing it correctly but the cue ball is deflecting out towards the rail.

Good luck, That's my take on tuck and roll.
Joe T
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great info Joe....I allways knew you were a TUCKer, but didn't know you were a ROLLer as well :D , RJ

ps. Will be doing several hrs of practice tommorow with you "Aiming System" booklet and PM you some scores tommorow.That's one tough-assed challenge and I'm greatful to you for it. RJ
 
Joe. thats a really good explanation. is that the only way of doing it. I move my lower arm off line. I've tried the wrist thing. but i just cant do it that way.
 
seven said:
Joe. thats a really good explanation. is that the only way of doing it. I move my lower arm off line. I've tried the wrist thing. but i just cant do it that way.
Click to expand...

Try not to move your lower arm off your stroke line. Most pro player really keep their upper and lower arm in a good grooved position (many different but most consistent)

Try using a little wrist and a little tilt of your bridge (also maybe a longer bridge might help). Keep your bridge planted firmly on the bottom and tilt the stick slightly left or right. You should be able to get at least a half a tip out of your wrist and another half a tip from the bridge tilt while only moving both very little.

You can do it, but it may be very difficult on your own. I see and understand my student dilema when I'm telling them "nope you changed you aim". I can see it and they can't and for you to try to see it alone is gonna be a B****. Go with the straight ins and try to pivot back and forth to all the different tip positions of the cue ball clock face. Stay open and observant because if you happen to hit a good one it probably won't feel right and will be hard to reproduce unless you're paying attention to what the picture looked and felt like ahead of time.

Good Luck, wish I could be there to tell you when you changed your aim and when you didn't!

Joe T
 
drivermaker said:
Goddamit Joe...I wanted Jewett to respond to this and explain it. He had no fucking clue!! NONE!! The wimpy little piss ant evaded my post like the plague ....
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drivermaker, what the hell is wrong with you?
 
larrynj1 said:
drivermaker, what the hell is wrong with you?
Click to expand...


When I wrote that?...not a single solitary thing. I was as lucid and sane as Dr. Phil. Sometimes you just gotta tell it like it is and lay out the truth. Now go back to the cue thread and say nothing. On with you boy...go on...get outta here...shooo
 
larrynj1 said:
drivermaker, what the hell is wrong with you?
Click to expand...
I can't tell you, since I don't read his posts. But please don't quote his text. Thanks.
 
Joe T said:
...
And I think the reason people say they don't compensate for deflection while using backhand english is because (And this is a guess) I think they actually change their aim slightly when pivoting (say to the right) and then they do get the deflection (to the left) and it's like a cancelling effect but the deflection or squirt does happen, right Bob?
Click to expand...
Well, I know some people who use backhand english who get good results at various speeds and distances without changing their bridge lengths. They must be doing some kind of compensation for the changes in swerve, but I don't know how, and they don't seem to know either.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I can't tell you, since I don't read his posts. But please don't quote his text. Thanks.
Click to expand...


That makes us even...I don't read your whacky aricles in Billiard's Digest that are written for the pool playing inhabitants of the galaxy "Geometrus Diarrheaus", and neither does anybody else. Earthlings have yet to be able to decipher this alien tongue let alone learn from it.
 
drivermaker said:
That makes us even...I don't read your whacky aricles in Billiard's Digest that are written for the pool playing inhabitants of the galaxy "Geometrus Diarrheaus", and neither does anybody else. Earthlings have yet to be able to decipher this alien tongue let alone learn from it.
Click to expand...

Driver,

Even though some (most?) may not read or understand the scientific details of reality, it is still important for us all that some people do write and read this stuff.

Considering that pool equipment's actions can be explained precisely in scientific terms,and therefore understood better, we can then use this exact knowledge to improve our thinking and physical actions while at the table.

I thank the nerds, for lack of a better term, for being...well...nerdy, by recaping their knowledge into useable formats for me and thee.

Using the scientific method enables a pool player to be reasonably sure that what he's doing will add value to his/her game, or not.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Using the scientific method enables a pool player to be reasonably sure that what he's doing will add value to his/her game, or not.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...


Maybe...but not necessarily. It might get you to thinking about things while at the table that are totally irrelevant. How much scientific knowledge do you think Danny Basavich has?
 
drivermaker said:
Maybe...but not necessarily. It might get you to thinking about things while at the table that are totally irrelevant. How much scientific knowledge do you think Danny Basavich has?
Click to expand...
I bet he applies the pythagorean theorem to get a 3-rail shape on the 9 most of the time.
 
drivermaker said:
Maybe...but not necessarily. It might get you to thinking about things while at the table that are totally irrelevant. How much scientific knowledge do you think Danny Basavich has?
Click to expand...

I think as long as you learn something, anything, you need to forget it to play right. Analitical thinking is fine for those that have a pentiant for it (not me), but only at the practice table. You train it, then trust it. Too many times if you practice working on a certain tecnique, or many. This will carey into play and your always warry of your fundamentals or trying to "control" everything. The paradox with shooting is that in order to get control, you have to give up control. Shot making and shape when in stroke is nothing but pure memory. I try a lot of different things while practicing, but then i make sure that the magority of my sessions are free wheeling and instinct. Accepting "all" my leaves without judgement and continueing to play on. In a game or under stress you will always do what you know best. If that happens to be friggin with your aim, stroke, and everything else......your in trouble. St.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I bet he applies the pythagorean theorem to get a 3-rail shape on the 9 most of the time.
Click to expand...


I don't know...but somehow I just get the feeling that he might think that would be a large snake from Korea. :confused: :D
 
JoeyInCali said:
I bet he applies the pythagorean theorem to get a 3-rail shape on the 9 most of the time.
Click to expand...
WOW?!?!?!?!!?!

He does that too???

Thanks,

Jon ~~ A^2 + B^2 = C^2 :D .
 
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